CAS Rugby 2012

[Snort]

At the risk of posting something that belongs in another thread, these are my thoughts on the Trinity issue raised above.

I'm not currently connected with the school and don't know what its policies are. Whether it offers scholarships, I can't say. There's no doubt that it actively recruits rugby players. Maybe five or six players in its current 1st XV came to the school after year 7 having demonstrated talent.

Now, Trinity is in the CAS competition. It has a choice. It can say, we will take steps to ensure that we're competitive in Rugby, or it can be Sydney High. I think what the school has done is recruit selectively so that its top team competes reasonably well. And I don't see a problem with that. Trinity is located in an area of Sydney that does not have, traditionally, a large Rugby base. A very large proportion of its students come from homes in which soccer is the dominant football code. Actually, I quite admire the way in which St Aloysius fields competitive teams from a small student body without actively attracting Rugby players. And here is a list of the St Aloysius teams that have won the Plume Shield. In case you missed it, here it is again.

If Trinity didn't try to bolster its stocks, then the CAS competition would be a two-tiered one: Knox, Barker and Waverley playing to win, and Trinity, St Aloysius and Cranbrook playing to avoid the wooden spoon. I don't see that as a desirable outcome. Saying that Trinity shouldn't recruit is effectively saying that the traditionally strong schools should dominate all the time.

This, incidentally, is not just about winning. It's partly a safety issue (it became physically dangerous for High to send its players out to play GPS 1sts, remember) and largely about just being able to compete on an even footing.

And, let's have some perspective. It's not as if Trinity "buys premierships". It has won once in twelve years. And that premiership was won by a team in which the overwhelming majority of the players were home-grown.

The net result of Trinity's recruitment policy has been a stronger CAS competition, stronger CAS teams, no domination by any one school, and maybe a few boys who get more of an education that they would have otherwise. I'm struggling to see anything wrong in that.

 

[Snort]

Paterson from Waverley evidently played fairly well for CAS, yet has missed selection in the two NSW sides and has not been called up by Combined States (assuming he was available). he's probably the only CAS player who was expected to progress, but did not.

I'm not stirring here, but genuinely curious. Clearly Paterson has very enthusiastic admirers on this forum, and obviously he is a talented player. What is it, then, that prevents him from progressing? Assume, for the sake of argument, that the answer is more complicated than "the selctors are morons". Is there some weakness in his game that was exposed in the CAS fixtures?

 

[It is what it is]

At the risk of posting something that belongs in another thread, these are my thoughts on the Trinity issue raised above.

I'm not currently connected with the school and don't know what its policies are. Whether it offers scholarships, I can't say. There's no doubt that it actively recruits rugby players. Maybe five or six players in its current 1st XV came to the school after year 7 having demonstrated talent.

Now, Trinity is in the CAS competition. It has a choice. It can say, we will take steps to ensure that we're competitive in Rugby, or it can be Sydney High. I think what the school has done is recruit selectively so that its top team competes reasonably well. And I don't see a problem with that. Trinity is located in an area of Sydney that does not have, traditionally, a large Rugby base. A very large proportion of its students come from homes in which soccer is the dominant football code. Actually, I quite admire the way in which St Aloysius fields competitive teams from a small student body without actively attracting Rugby players. And here is a list of the St Aloysius teams that have won the Plume Shield. In case you missed it, here it is again.

If Trinity didn't try to bolster its stocks, then the CAS competition would be a two-tiered one: Knox, Barker and Waverley playing to win, and Trinity, St Aloysius and Cranbrook playing to avoid the wooden spoon. I don't see that as a desirable outcome. Saying that Trinity shouldn't recruit is effectively saying that the traditionally strong schools should dominate all the time.

This, incidentally, is not just about winning. It's partly a safety issue (it became physically dangerous for High to send its players out to play GPS 1sts, remember) and largely about just being able to compete on an even footing.

And, let's have some perspective. It's not as if Trinity "buys premierships". It has won once in twelve years. And that premiership was won by a team in which the overwhelming majority of the players were home-grown.

The net result of Trinity's recruitment policy has been a stronger CAS competition, stronger CAS teams, no domination by any one school, and maybe a few boys who get more of an education that they would have otherwise. I'm struggling to see anything wrong in that.

CAS Schools are currently not allowed to offer sporting scholarships, that is fact, and agreed upon by the Association.

While this is the case, and until something changes, they cannot offer sporting scholarships, no matter how justified anyone may think they are. Schools, including their Headmasters, Teachers and Boards are currently flaunting these rules.......unacceptable.

What if other CAS schools wished to offer the same or more in sporting scholarships?
What if a CAS school brought their whole 1st XV team into the college in Year 11?
..........debate, debate, debate >>>>>decision

The next question should be;

If CAS Schools were to be allowed to offer sporting scholarships, how should this be managed and administered?

Because this is a rugby website, we've naturally kept it focused on rugby.
But, we've already seen talk of schools importing athletes and swimmers, and where if anywhere does it stop....... tennis, soccer, basketball ???
Have you looked at the trend in CAS swimming (Trinity, winners 2004 through 2012) and CAS athletics (Trinity, winners 2009 through 2011) titles lately?
Should CAS sporting scholarships be limited by school, to a $$$ budget per school OR a limited number of recipients OR certain sports or just be unlimited?
Or does the winner (richest) take all?

The Fat Lady mightn't be singing but Pandora's Box is creeping open.

 

[Snort]

CAS Schools are currently not allowed to offer sporting scholarships, that is fact, and agreed upon by the Association.

Ah, not true.

There is no such rule in the CAS (there is in the GPS). The reason is that legal advice said that a prohibition on sporting scholarships was an unlawful restraint of trade. So no-one is flaunting any rules.

 

[rtd32]

he's probably the only CAS player who was expected to progress, but did not.

forgive me if I misinterpreted what you've said here but I would have expected Tom Wislon, Jenkins, Creeley, Clunies-Ross, and Satiu all to be selected for NSW. If I indeed have misinterpreted what you have said, I think I am not alone in saying Flaherty has played well enough to have a run in a NSW jersey and yet he has not made it either. I can't help you understand why, other than perhaps the selectors saw other boys (who we haven't seen enough of to make a proper judgement) who were better

 

[Crushing Snake]

Numpty = mutard / idiot. With regard to our mate cut snake, methinks a village somewhere is lamenting the absence of their idiot!

Conventional wisdom it is wise to never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience. MOTH and Newbie you are both irresistible!

I have not in any way done or suggested anything that has pushed MOTHs buttons and elicited the avalanche of vitriol with the result of playing the man and not the ball.

I know the internet can be one dimensional – suitably matches MOTH exhibited public outburst – take it from a professional you have serious anger management issues.

“Mutard & Humpty” – is that the best you can do? Seriously. Village idiot – ouch!

Herewith is a lesson

I understand later figures may be available as of last week – however for your edification (please read as improvement, instruction & enlightenment) the area surrounding Trinity compromises 20.8% of people who are born predominantly in non-English speaking countries (and resident in Australia for five years). This is compared to 17.8% for Sydney as a whole.

62.8% are Australian born which is below the general Australian figure of 72.6%.

Of the 8.7% of people from English speaking countries 5% are from UK and Eire.

Add them up MOTH– (I will do it for you 62.8+ 8.7 =71.5%). Not much difference is there?
More to come - I have catered for your limited attention span!

 

[Crushing Snake]

The major birthplaces of the non-English speaking population include China (3.5%); Italy (3.3%); Greece (1.8%); Vietnam (1.7%); Korea (1.6%) India (1.1%) and Hong Kong and Lebanon (both 1.0%).

The area has slightly lower proportions of single parent families (9.1%) and Aboriginal and Torres Islander (1%) compared to Sydney as a whole (with 9.6% and 1.1% respectively)

Full time secondary school education participation of 16 year olds living in the area (74.9%) is slightly lower than for Sydney (76.2%).

Households who received rent assistance form Centrelink (14.5%) and rented dwellings from the State Housing Authority (5.5%) compared to Sydney (13.7% and 5.1%). The portion of dwellings with no access to a motor vehicle (20.6%) is notably higher than that for Sydney (13.1%), in part reflecting access to public transport.

The above information or indicators as the informed say shows the area has a near average status as anywhere in Australia. Trinity draws students from the Shire to Windsor. A wide cultural diversity suburb or area would be Bankstown, Fairfield or Cabramatta – as they are also the poorest suburbs in the country.

As they say in Scotland “Go take a running fuck at a rolling doughnut” bampot and bawbag!

And yes I have bred – two FYI – one doing medicine and the other veterinary science and I will know you will be well cared for in your old age – either way you’ll be covered.

 

[Man on the hill]

it is wise to never argue with an idiot - they'll bring you down to their level then beat you with experience.

No argument from me - you beat me!

 

[Snort]

forgive me if I misinterpreted what you've said here but I would have expected Tom Wislon, Jenkins, Creeley, Clunies-Ross, and Satiu all to be selected for NSW. If I indeed have misinterpreted what you have said, I think I am not alone in saying Flaherty has played well enough to have a run in a NSW jersey and yet he has not made it either. I can't help you understand why, other than perhaps the selectors saw other boys (who we haven't seen enough of to make a proper judgement) who were better

Sorry, thought it was clear. How about, of the players expected to progress, he was the one who did not? I think we all expected, for example, Wilson, to be selected. Flaherty may have played well but I don't think he went into the CAS games with the same fanfare as Paterson.

 

[Newbie]

No argument from me - you beat me!

Ouch!

BTW if I'd only known that 'statistical overload' was your weak link MOTH I too would have spent a week perusing the ABS website!

 

[rtd32]

Sorry, thought it was clear. How about, of the players expected to progress, he was the one who did not? I think we all expected, for example, Wilson, to be selected. Flaherty may have played well but I don't think he went into the CAS games with the same fanfare as Paterson.

there were a number arguing that Wilson wouldn't even make CAS 1sts, so as I said, forgive me for misinterpreting what you wrote. As for your comments on Flaherty, all I can say is not many centres would have an easy task of running the ball at him, nor him running at them. The only thing Flaherty lacks IMO is pace, as even his kicking game is good for a schoolboy standard. But I'm not selecting and I haven't seen enough of GPS, CHS, CCC, or ISA to dispute the decision of him not making NSW

 

[Crushing Snake]

CS,


Satiu was an SJRU rep before attending Trintiy
Afele was an SJRU rep before attending Trinity

These are just a few examples I know of. I will stand corrected of course, however I am of the firm view that each of the aforementioned lads was offered a position at their respective school because of the established reputations each possessed.

A relationship 'quid pro quo' so to speak!

I have not heard of the other guys previously - so they must be at least 5 years ago.
Both Junior and Malaki - have many attributes - I think you are referring to the Under 15s NSW juniuor team. As you well know they both developed early and had an advantage - the size advantage however is no longer there - as Malaki Afele has found this year - he is crashing into men who are more than willing to match him. Junior has significant technical ability for his position and will continue to prosper (as will Malaki - as he has a big heart). The plain fact is that the NSW Schoolboys is the route to take if you want to play rugby professionally - - their quid pro quo as you say - has doubled their chances as NSWJRU evaporates at the 17s.

Newbie - you spend your whole life being corrected. You often get things wrong - yes quite often - thats because you are a fence sitter - you're words as good as the last bloke you have spoken to.

Which half are you with MOTH - Dumb or Dumber?

ABS web site -? wrong again - it took ten minutes to get that information (may have taken you a week ) - generally I need to say this you're the coward who runs across the field and throws a hay maker after the fight has already taken place.

Yellow card for you for what you are doing in the other threads - Get a life and stop being a bully.

 

[Newbie]

I have not heard of the other guys previously - so they must be at least 5 years ago.
Both Junior and Malaki - have many attributes - I think you are referring to the Under 15s NSW juniuor team. As you well know they both developed early and had an advantage - the size advantage however is no longer there - as Malaki Afele has found this year - he is crashing into men who are more than willing to match him. Junior has significant technical ability for his position and will continue to prosper (as will Malaki - as he has a big heart). The plain fact is that the NSW Schoolboys is the route to take if you want to play rugby professionally ... ... ... ... ... ... Newbie - you spend your whole life being corrected. You often get things wrong - yes quite often - thats because you are a fence sitter ... ... ... ... ... ... Which half are you with MOTH - Dumb or Dumber? ... ... ... ... ... ... I need to say this you're the coward who runs across the field and throws a hay maker after the fight ... ... ... ... ... ... Yellow card for you for what you are doing in the other threads - Get a life and stop being a bully.

Cut Snake,

First and foremost, let me thank for your recent psychoanalysis, however I think your time would be better served projecting that high powered perception inward as I am not not the one spending days on end trolling through another's posts to try and find an angle from which to project an attack on the same!

With regard to being wrong and/or standing corrected, definately so! And if you have read all of my posts you would have noted my many apologies or acknowlegements of standing corrected. I will be the first to admit that humble pie is good for the soul; it keeps one grounded and I have gladly eaten plenty of it in this forum!

How about you sir? Are you amenable to correction? Well let's see! When attacking my post (as you have done above) please do so in its entirety, because I find the manner in which you have done so, 'COWARDLY'. In dissecting my post you chose only two boys, Satiu and Afele, and did so on the basis of them only gaining higher rep honours through club rugby and not school. What about the other lads I mentioned in my post why did you neglect to mention them? Because they were lads from five years ago? WTF! When researching please do it properly; they are current players! Some of them were were school representatives (and more) before they were offered positions at their respective GPS school's. In other words they didn't need a leg up into a NSWSRU team, they were already bloody there! Their school's knew it and it was the basis for the offer being made to them!

You also refer to me as a 'fence sitter'! For me such a person hedges or casts a wide net, they won't nominate for fear of being wrong. Once again I will ask you to re-read all of my posts and I dare say you will find that I, like most others in this forum, enjoy trying to predict outcomes and probable selections. In doing so I have also been 'WRONG' and applauded others when they have hit the mark! Taken as a whole, how you were able to draw such a conclusion defies logic, but then again you are illogical!

You then have the hide to call me a bully! And once again you have drawn this conclusion because you have read my earlier post. Without wanting to sound like a broken record, I will again ask you to carefully re-read my posts because I will do go on the attack when others in this forum make allegations that they are unwilling to substantiate with facts (especially against those who volunteer their time our great game), or when they express elitist/narcissistic views (which incidentally both myself and others found one of your earlier posts to be expressing, hence this discussion).

With respect to MOTH and I being 'DUMB' and 'DUMBER', probably so, and I am sure many here would agree! I have been called worse, and by MOTH actually (see MOTH and I don't always see eye to eye, but you having read all my earliers posts would already know this).

I haven't sought the approval of MOTH yet but I sure he would agree to you joining our motley crew and MOTH can be 'DUMB', I can be 'DUMBER', and you can be 'DUMBEST'! Just like the three musketeers!

Have a good evening!

PS - and the current pathway of schools to professional rugby is really working isn't it eh? Have a look at Australia's result over the last decade at an U/20 and National team level; better still in the last two seasons; yeah real f*%king impressive eh!

Here's a RED card for you elitist fool!

 

[Man on the hill]

All for one. And one for all. HURRAH!!!

 

[Newbie]

CS,

Please disregard my earlier comments about the Australian Colts and National teams; I no longer wish to be subjected to a bombardment of statistics. Besides have the weekend off!

 

[barkercas]

paterson is starting at 15 for combined states ?

 

[Newbie]

paterson is starting at 15 for combined states ?

I believed he deserved a spot in the NSW II's at the very least!

 

[Snort]

paterson is starting at 15 for combined states ?

OK, I just checked and you're right. But he wasn't there when the squad was first named - Josh Bowen-Boyer from Queensland was the 15 and Paterson wasn't in the 23.

Still doesn't quite answer my question, which was why the selectors appear reluctant to choose him.

 

[Man on the hill]

...Still doesn't quite answer my question, which was why the selectors appear reluctant to choose him.

I think a number of scribes in this forum are curious in that regard.

 

[Newbie]

If there are two lads who I hope will 'tear it up' at Nationals it is Paterson and Clunies-Ross.

Both have been unlucky (for different reasons) IMO!