Clyde Rathbone

[Christopher McDonald]

Clyde Rathbone: "As to pride in a Jersey. When I represented South Africa as a junior or Australia at senior level I played for the guys around me, for past players I respected and for my family. Patriotism is often nothing more than nationalism in golden camouflage, I'm not interested in it, and neither should you be."

Honestly, I just don't get this. He doesn't care about the country. I know that New Zealanders, when playing for the All Blacks, care about NZ and want to win for NZ as well as for their team mates and family.

And what about the fans? I support NZ because I am a New Zealander and I care about my country. Is he suggesting that fans shouldn't be interested in supporting their country? It seems hard to believe.

He seems like a rather cold, calculating character to me.

This sort of opinion is exactly why, although SBW is of course a great sportsman, will never, in my view, be respected as a Rugby player, All Black, or New Zealander. They, by their actions, just don't care that much about their country and that is important to me!

What does everyone else think?

 

[cyclopath]

I get what you're saying, but I think he is saying that he plays his guts out for the team for his own reasons. Being someone who left his country of birth, and I won't start assuming to understand all his decision-making in that, he has a different mindset to many others among us.
Look at Brad Thorn, who represented two countries with distinction. Look at the many players who move OS to get an Test career they cannot find here, or NZ.
I agree with the sentence about nationalism / patriotism, which often get trotted out as much the same thing, when they are not. Wearing an Aussie flag as a cape, then behaving like a redneck loon is not patriotism.
I like his forthright approach in the pieces he has written.

 

[Cat_A]

I don't think he (or anyone in the public eye) can win.

I could find 30 or 40 posts from the past week in these forums talking about "pride in the jersey" and the importance of "pride in the jersey". The jersey itself is the emblem of the country - the symbolic representation of that country's past, present and future in the game. The great jersey swapping tradition has come to represent respect and mutual friendship.

Respecting these symbols for what they are means that you can get fired up, take your angry pills and belt your opposition on the field, because you are wearing the jersey. But equally so, when the final whistle has blown and the contest is over, wearing that jersey means that you shake hands, have a chat, and take your own beer with you in to the opposition sheds. It means that when you take the jersey off, you aren't still trying to kill the opposition in the post match function because they're Kiwis and you're an Aussie (or Aussie by way of SA).

When he says "patriotism is often nothing more than nationalism in golden camouflage" he is referring to the Orwellian idea that nationalism is a feeling that one’s country is superior to another in all respects, while patriotism is merely a feeling of admiration for a way of life. By nature, patriotism is passive and nationalism can be aggressive. It's this nationalistic fervour that escalates rugby discussions from differing points of view to fisticuffs in the carpark.

It's up to each of us as fans to make that jersey that he's talking about mean something to us. It's not Clyde Rathbone's job to make me feel more patriotic - that's the jersey's job and I'm happy that he values that jersey and wants to represent that jersey with pride.


And you may not have even meant it, but even in your post @Christopher McDonald, you placed being a New Zealander behind being a rugby player and an All Black.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think the patriotism thing is not really that important. Unless you're some sort of ultranationalist with a warped view of the world, patriotism is only going to get you so far on a sporting field.

You've got to be motivated to give your all for yourself and for your teammates around you and for your team in general. I think there is a distinction between giving your all for your team being the Wallabies along the history behind it and your country in general.

If you boil it down to only caring about patriotism then you might start thinking that only about 10% of the country are actually watching the game and half the country are probably not even aware that the game is on. The team however (the Wallabies) is being supported passionately by all those people watching them who care deeply about it. That is what pride in the jersey is about in my opinion.

 

[Rob42]

I don't like what Clyde said, but in his case, I can definitely understand it. He made a tough decision in leaving SA, and has copped plenty of crap for it. I can't imagine he had a particularly good view of South African patriotism when he was standing near the sidelines in some of those tests over there.

 

[Christopher McDonald]

It's up to each of us as fans to make that jersey that he's talking about mean something to us. It's not Clyde Rathbone's job to make me feel more patriotic - that's the jersey's job and I'm happy that he values that jersey and wants to represent that jersey with pride.

The thing is that he doesn't represent Australia or South Africa with pride, he wears a jersey, and plays for his team mates and family. That's what he says.... and that is what I find distasteful.

And you may not have even meant it, but even in your post @Christopher McDonald, you placed being a New Zealander behind being a rugby player and an All Black. [/quote]

Hehe, nah, "New Zealander" was intentionally placed last in the list as an emphasis.

 

[Braveheart81]

The thing is that he doesn't represent Australia or South Africa with pride, he wears a jersey, and plays for his team mates and family. That's what he says.. and that is what I find distasteful.

I don't think saying he's not interested in patriotism means that he wasn't proud to be selected to represent South Africa and Australia respectively.

I think you're making an illogical leap of faith there.

Particularly in Australia, the concept of what has become known as "Aussie Pride" is one of the things I find most distateful about Australia and Australians. It is little more than thinly veiled racism.

 

[Christopher McDonald]

Look at Brad Thorn, who represented two countries with distinction. Look at the many players who move OS to get an Test career they cannot find here, or NZ.

Yes, I don't agree with what Brad Thorn did either. He never received as much criticism as SBW but he also swapped sports, swapped countries, and rejected the All Blacks. For those reasons, I will never hold Brad Thorn in high regard either.

I know that many people are completely comfortable with that sort of behaviour but not me!

 

[Christopher McDonald]

I don't think saying he's not interested in patriotism means that he wasn't proud to be selected to represent South Africa and Australia respectively.

I think you're making an illogical leap of faith there.

Particularly in Australia, the concept of what has become known as "Aussie Pride" is one of the things I find most distateful about Australia and Australians. It is little more than thinly veiled racism.

I'm not sure how that is illogical as that is what he said. Unless he means something contrary to what he said, I will take him at his word.

Also, I'm not sure what is wrong with being proud of your country and supporting your country if that is what you're implying. That is completely possible without degrading other people's countries and in any case, it wouldn't be racism, it would be discrimination based on one's nationality. This is slightly off topic, however.

 

[Slim 293]

he wears a jersey, and plays for his team mates and family. That's what he says.. and that is what I find distasteful.

How could anyone find that distatestful?

 

[Christopher McDonald]

How could anyone find that distatestful?

Great job of editing there ... what about the rest of the sentence where I spoke about him not playing for his country, which is after all, the main point of discussion.

You could get a job on Fox News with that sort of editing.

 

[Hairy Test Eagle]

In Clyde's case it isn't something that bothers me. He plays his ass off and conducts himself exceptionally off the field. That shows enough respect for the jersey in my mind.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm not sure how that is illogical as that is what he said. Unless he means something contrary to what he said, I will take him at his word.

Also, I'm not sure what is wrong with being proud of your country and supporting your country if that is what you're implying. That is completely possible without degrading other people's countries and in any case, it wouldn't be racism, it would be discrimination based on one's nationality. This is slightly off topic, however.

If you're talking about being proud of Australia and what it stands for then that should relate to embracing multiculturalism (we are a nation of immigrants) and giving everyone a fair go.

When you look at the whole "Aussie Pride" thing, they seem to be proud of people who are white and believe in giving people a fair go to anyone as long as they're not an immigrant with different coloured skin.

I think Clyde Rathbone questioned what people generally mean when they talk about patriotism and I think quite rightly cites that most of the time when people talk about patriotism they are actually describing something that is closer to nationalism with a good mix of racism.

What exactly makes you proud to be a New Zealander? Should the players be thinking about the lovely countryside when they run out to play for their country? Thinking about how proud they are to be from a socially progressive country that was the first to introduce universal suffrage?

Or are they actually proud to represent the All Blacks who represent your country with distinction? Within that, it is pretty much impossible to argue that SBW didn't represent your country with distinction and that Brad Thorn isn't one of the all time greats to represent your country and embodies teamwork, hardwork and good sportsmanship.

From that I would say that Clyde Rathbone also represented Australia with distinction and that is all I think we can ask any player to do.

I think it is a bit different for New Zealand because the All Blacks are far more intrinsically linked with the national identity than the Wallabies are.

 

[Christopher McDonald]

Far too many topics to cover there but it seems that everyone is completely comfortable with virtually anything, as long as the player performs on the field. There are still many James O'Connor fans who think it doesn't matter what he does off the field as long as he plays well on it.

I obviously draw the line between what I view as acceptable behaviour for someone in the sport and team that I support a lot sooner than many others. I would like to know then, where is that line for others? Or is anything permissible?

 

[Slim 293]

Great job of editing there . what about the rest of the sentence where I spoke about him not playing for his country, which is after all, the main point of discussion.

You could get a job on Fox News with that sort of editing.

The edit doesn't in any way manipulate your argument........

Family and teammates are far more important than country or any concept of "national pride"..........

Personally, I completely agree with Rathbone on this..........

 

[Braveheart81]

Far too many topics to cover there but it seems that everyone is completely comfortable with virtually anything, as long as the player performs on the field. There are still many James O'Connor fans who think it doesn't matter what he does off the field as long as he plays well on it.

I obviously draw the line between what I view as acceptable behaviour for someone in the sport and team that I support a lot sooner than many others. I would like to know then, where is that line for others? Or is anything permissible?

You have conflated your opinion with what some of us have said completely incorrectly.

None of us have said that the only thing that matters is the performance on the field.

What exactly has Brad Thorn done off the field that should stop him from being almost universally acclaimed as a sportsman and as a person? I think the problem is with you, not with what Brad Thorn has done by playing for two different countries in two different sports.

I really think this is your issue, not anyone else's.

You will struggle to find a poster on this site that doesn't have an issue with what JOC (James O'Connor) does off the field. Most of us can separate the two issues though and evaluate them separately. Many posters (including myself) freely acknowledge that in general he has played very well for the Wallabies but don't want him involved with the Wallabies again until his behaviour off the field comes into line.

 

[Christopher McDonald]

The edit doesn't in any way manipulate your argument....

Family and teammates are far more important than country or any concept of "national pride"....

Personally, I completely agree with Rathbone on this....

Sorry, but my exception to his admission that he doesn't play for his country does not not imply that I don't consider other reasons for playing important and certainly doesn't place them in any particular order of importance either.

 

[Slim 293]

Sorry, but my exception to his admission that he doesn't play for his country does not not imply that I don't consider other reasons for playing important and certainly doesn't place them in any particular order of importance either.

But you obviously do if you find it to be distastesful that he plays for reasons I feel a lot of people would find to be more important than the silly concept of "national pride".........

 

[Braveheart81]

Sorry, but my exception to his admission that he doesn't play for his country does not not imply that I don't consider other reasons for playing important and certainly doesn't place them in any particular order of importance either.

See that river there, or that mountain over there, that's my country and that's what I'm playing for.

What exactly do you mean by playing for your country?

This is not war. They're not going out to fight for the existence and freedom of their country. Literally fighting for their right to continue living the life they do. They're playing sport.

 

[Christopher McDonald]

But you obviously do if you find it to be distastesful that he plays for reasons I feel a lot of people would find to be more important than the silly concept of "national pride"...

Come on, it's not the inclusion of family or team mates, it's the exclusion of national pride which I don't like. Why do you persist in inferring something different to what I have already explained?