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Coal Seam Gas Mining

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Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
That is a such a red herring. The "environmentalists" in the clip aren't your usual hippies are they. They are farmers and traditional national party voters.

To go back to your point, it's the other chemicals that are used and the release of the gas at large volumes (large enough to harvest) that is a concern. Those chemicals are released into the acquifers which are used for human and stock water. On that point, even the miners themselves don't disagree.

If you have any information to suggest there is no danger to water supplies then feel free to post it.

"Red herring"?? Are you 'a little slow', or just a bitter Labor voter soured by successive failed Socialist Govts (state and federal)? Did I say the people in the clip "Lee McNicholl....etc." were "environmentalists"?...No, why?...because I haven't watched it! I was talking about "Gasland" and gullible people being conned by unscrupulous film writers and producers, (or presenters like Al Gore), or hypocrits like Tim Flannery, Peter Garrett, Penny Wong and Bob Brown! I, like you, hate the amalgamation of toxic chemicals into any aquifer. I know most of the property owners, and/or their parents who are fighting the coal mining and coal seam gas companies at Caroona on the Liverpool plains of NW NSW. I was involved in the domestic water/stock water/irrigation industry for 20 years in that area, so please don't lecture me about what you feel I should or should not know, (or believe) about "fracking", and I wont lecture you about the fact that we are also now in a 20 to 30 year period of Global Cooling, due to "Solar Hybination"!
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
My friend, the moment you start attaching labels you lose sight of whether the substance of what is being said has value or not. In relation to your question, I am neither slow nor a labour voter. But thanks for enquiring.

If you are commenting on Gasland then I assume you have seen it. Naturally you wouldn't comment on it if you haven't seen it; I mean, how could you?

The whole point of Gasland is that fracking pollutes water tables and streams (which are connected to underwater flows). That being the case, it is no different to what is happening in the Liverpool Plains or Queensland. In that context it is quite possible that we (and the producer of Gasland) agree in relation to the issue at hand. We almost undoubtedly agree that the miners should stay away from the beautiful country around Caroona (and elsewhere).

We may or may not agree on "Solar Hybination" (by which I assume you mean Solar Hybernation). Perhaps if you lectured me I could decide. Unless you're aware of measurements I've not seen, we almost certainly don't agree that the globe is cooling.
 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
My friend, the moment you start attaching labels you lose sight of whether the substance of what is being said has value or not. In relation to your question, I am neither slow nor a labour voter. But thanks for enquiring.

If you are commenting on Gasland then I assume you have seen it. Naturally you wouldn't comment on it if you haven't seen it; I mean, how could you?

The whole point of Gasland is that fracking pollutes water tables and streams (which are connected to underwater flows). That being the case, it is no different to what is happening in the Liverpool Plains or Queensland. In that context it is quite possible that we (and the producer of Gasland) agree in relation to the issue at hand. We almost undoubtedly agree that the miners should stay away from the beautiful country around Caroona (and elsewhere).

We may or may not agree on "Solar Hybination" (by which I assume you mean Solar Hybernation). Perhaps if you lectured me I could decide. Unless you're aware of measurements I've not seen, we almost certainly don't agree that the globe is cooling.

So we both have spelling "moments"! Yes I have watched Gasland, yes we agree about maintaining the integrity of prime agricultural land, no I'm not about to lecture you, and you will eventually see that Global Cooling will become part of your life! (I have communicated with the President of the US Space and Science Research Corporation, [SSRC] which now has NASA agreeing with their findings). Look them up and you may become "enlightened". With respect to the GAGR rules, after two attempts, I will now withdraw, and resist the temptation to "play the man"! Like you, I am passionate about 'our' Wallabies, so let's enjoy their transition through to the final, where, as I predicted three months ago, they (hopefully) should meet the Boks!
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
you will eventually see that Global Cooling will become part of your life! (I have communicated with the President of the US Space and Science Research Corporation, [SSRC] which now has NASA agreeing with their findings). Look them up and you may become "enlightened".

If you do have information to share with us then please do so. I'm genuinely interested.
 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
Sure boys. To Cutter, Bruwheresmycar, plus all other members interested in the latest scientific facts...my information comes from (as mentioned previously), SSRC (Space and Science Research Corporation). This is the Orlando, Florida based organisation that provides un-biased info to Governments, media, corporations, researchers, and engineers, principally for the purpose of planning. Their website can give you the full story, without me having to take up space here and do a lesser job. It's interesting that with "solar hibernation" (the dramatic reduction in the output of eneregy from the sun), comes increased volcanic and earthquake activity! I'm sure our Kiwi friends have their heads around this, particularly the farming sector which is one of the first industries to suffer the effects of global cooling. In a previous similar long-term weather event, the citizens of London were able to walk across the River Thames![I hope we aren't entering a period as intense]. In Australia, the 'Climate Sceptics' organisation (they source some of their data fom SSRC), is trying to inform citizens of the facts surrounding the AGW debate, however, in my opinion, the "big dollars" involved in trading carbon credits represents too big an opportunity for politicians, bankers and brokers to resist. By the way, amongst the "150 worst polluters in Australia", at #30...... the Federal Govt!! In summary guys (and gals), if we are going to experience an average temperature drop of from 2.3c to 3.6c for the next 20 to 30 years, it may be prudent to move north rather than south if you wish to relocate in the immediate future!! Go the Wallabies!
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
They are just an organisation publishing predictions on their own website. And I don't think their claims are accepted by anyone else.

It would be nice if "global cooling due to solar activity" is true, but it doesn't appear to be. The reason people don't listen to them is not because they are being paid off by "bankers" or the government. It is probably because they are making crazy predictions that don't comply with reality (and wont be accepted by mainstream science).
 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
Looks like we will remain on opposite sides of the half-way line on this topic! Judging by your first sentence, you appear to have no regard for NASA's credibility, however, I'm comfortable believing what I do, and you likewise. I don't agree with your comment that "it would be nice if global cooling due to solar activity is true", because I believe humans would handle small doses of global warming better than extended periods of global cooling. Growing grain and fodder crops in slightly warmer conditions would be preferable to to having shortened "growing seasons" and more frost (or snow) activity. The latter would produce global food shortages and add to international unrest. Perhaps we should canvas this topic again on "9/11" 2021!
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Don't get offended by cutter's 'red herring', mr Doug. I think it his favourite term to use in a debate! :)
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
In my experience Scotty, those who don't want to debate the point at hand favour a strategy of introducing a seemingly connected but actually irrelevant points. In this case, I was highlighting the danger to water supplies of coal seam gas mining and our buddy Mr Doug made unreferenced, third hand points about producers of documentaries excluding material from their final product. It seems connected because it is in respect of a documentary addressing the same issue. However the exclusion had/has no impact upon my point and even Mr Doug doesn't dispute that coal seam gas mining pollutes water supplies. On that basis, the point is irrelevant and distracts from the main issue and, thus, a red herring.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Sure boys. To Cutter, Bruwheresmycar, plus all other members interested in the latest scientific facts...my information comes from (as mentioned previously), SSRC (Space and Science Research Corporation). This is the Orlando, Florida based organisation that provides un-biased info to Governments, media, corporations, researchers, and engineers, principally for the purpose of planning. Their website can give you the full story, without me having to take up space here and do a lesser job. It's interesting that with "solar hibernation" (the dramatic reduction in the output of eneregy from the sun), comes increased volcanic and earthquake activity! I'm sure our Kiwi friends have their heads around this, particularly the farming sector which is one of the first industries to suffer the effects of global cooling. In a previous similar long-term weather event, the citizens of London were able to walk across the River Thames![I hope we aren't entering a period as intense]. In Australia, the 'Climate Sceptics' organisation (they source some of their data fom SSRC), is trying to inform citizens of the facts surrounding the AGW debate, however, in my opinion, the "big dollars" involved in trading carbon credits represents too big an opportunity for politicians, bankers and brokers to resist. By the way, amongst the "150 worst polluters in Australia", at #30...... the Federal Govt!! In summary guys (and gals), if we are going to experience an average temperature drop of from 2.3c to 3.6c for the next 20 to 30 years, it may be prudent to move north rather than south if you wish to relocate in the immediate future!!

It is curious that this hasn't hit the mainstream media. Who do you think is behind the movement to stop this happening? I know you say the carbon trading money men, but we both know that the combined buying power of the gas, oil and coal industries dwarves that of carbon traders.
 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
Don't get offended by cutter's 'red herring', mr Doug. I think it his favourite term to use in a debate! :)

Thanks for that Scotty. I'm not offended, and I don't think Cutter was trying to offend me, however, within the Climate Change debate, the simplex often gives way to the complex! I've always supported the latter, eg the KISS theory. I think Cutter feels I'm implying there's "a conspiracy", however, the information on both sides of the argument is available for scruteny, and people can decide for themselves which 'side' they choose. I'm interested that people can critisize the oil, gas and coal industries, yet expect the lights to come on when they 'flick a switch', and expect fuel to flow from the bowser hose at their local servo! I will reply to Cutter in the near future, but have several 3 am starts, so sleep comes first. By the way, having a daughter living in BC, Canada, Mrs Doug and I were delighted to see Canada 25 beat Tonga 20 today!
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Thanks for that Scotty. I'm not offended, and I don't think Cutter was trying to offend me, however, within the Climate Change debate, the simplex often gives way to the complex! I've always supported the latter, eg the KISS theory. I think Cutter feels I'm implying there's "a conspiracy", however, the information on both sides of the argument is available for scruteny, and people can decide for themselves which 'side' they choose. I'm interested that people can critisize the oil, gas and coal industries, yet expect the lights to come on when they 'flick a switch', and expect fuel to flow from the bowser hose at their local servo! I will reply to Cutter in the near future, but have several 3 am starts, so sleep comes first. By the way, having a daughter living in BC, Canada, Mrs Doug and I were delighted to see Canada 25 beat Tonga 20 today!

When you do get the chance to reply, can you also provide links to the relevant information.

Thanks.
 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
Cutter, I'm not happy, having just spent two hours on a comprehensive reply to you, then losing it whilst proof-reading! This bloody laptop has a mind of its own.
Here is a summary: I said that this was my last post on this thread as we agree on not poluting our aquifers with CSG extraction, however, on AGW, I sense we will never share the same views. Maybe you agree with Prof. Ross Garnaut and Prof. Karl Kruszelnicki who both have made public statements that "if you oppose the 'Global Warming Science' and you don't hold a university degree, you are wrong". My info has been gleaned over several years of searching the Net, reading newspaper and magazine articles, and listening to radio and tv programs (on both sides of the debate)...all of which you can do. I gave examples of some "climate scientists" lack of credibility, namely after years of researching sea levels around 27 Pacific Islands, Geographer and Associate Prof., Paul Kench of Auckland university found that 23 had stayed the same size or have grown! We have been told that Tuvalu was "drowning by rising seas" when in fact that group is not, (one of its islands grew by 30%). Similarly, the Republic of Kirabati, is not sinking, with 3 of its islands growing by 30%, 16.3% and 12.5%....Go to "Tuvalu is not sinking...." on 'Watts up with that' site. Even the New Scientist magazine was "forced to admit the good news"! Scientists from the CSIRO and the BOM, in August 2010, forecast an "abnormally hot and and abnormally dry summer for SE Queensland", when private long-range weather forecasters were saying that conditions resembled the period prior to the 1974 floods. As you know, we had a cooler than normal summer, record rainfall (the highest for up to 100 years in some districts), near record flooding which killed many people, filled all our dams (which Prof.Tim Flannery said would never fill again) and destroyed property, homes and businesses, effecting up to 70% of the state. So now because of all this false information, our Govt says we need a carbon tax to save us! Those wishing to forward submissions on the legislation have until the end of the week to examine the 1,100 pages of bills! Ms Gillard has cancelled all the public meetings that normally accompany such legislation because "there is not enough time"!
You can go to the ASX site and see what's involved in setting up the carbon credits and futures trading board and settlement sites (eg ASX Austraclear) for the ETS when it is commenced.[Interesting to note the discovery of $5bn in "carbon trading fraud" in Norway]! So, Cutter, not what you hoped for (a list of websites that you could quickly surf), however, the data is out there just waiting for you! No doubt we'll communicate on another thread at another time, but now I will try and find a way to get over last night's loss to Ireland!
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
So basically you think there is some sort of government conspiracy behind climate science?

Scientists have been predicting global warming for decades, long before the government gave a crap. If all of this "scientists with bad credibility" argument is the best argument against climate science, there isn't much of an argument against climate science.
 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
So basically you think there is some sort of government conspiracy behind climate science?

Scientists have been predicting global warming for decades, long before the government gave a crap. If all of this "scientists with bad credibility" argument is the best argument against climate science, there isn't much of an argument against climate science.

No, I don't think it's "Government Conspiracy", rather "Industry [eg the scientists] Misinformation". Too many researchers rely on Govt grants for their survival, so they are hardly going say everything is fine, when they can pedal the "fear factor" (often using outdated research data) which convinces Govts around the world to keep pouring funding into their projects. I've already mentioned the Pacific Islands example of inacurate conclusions, and the many temperature recording sites around the world which lead to false readings is another example. By that I mean that to compare present day temperature records to those of ten years ago when the contributing factors have varied is pure fraud! The photos of some of these sites are on the net, and they are laughable.
When you build multi-storey buildings around recording sites, when you install air conditioning units on external walls near recording aparatus, or when you create a bitumen carpark next to a site, of course you will get increased temperature recordings, because you have changed the "environment" surrounding those sites!

I'm not a lone voice here, as there are hundreds of thousands of Australians who aren't prepared to except all this scientific evidence as being the "gospel truth". Speaking of gospel, I'm sure there's a line in The Bible: "There are none so blind as those who cannot see"! Perhaps that applies to you and our friend Cutter?
Your last sentence is a gem! Are you saying that just because someone is either incompetent or dishonest, you should still employ them, or (to use a rugby analagy), just because player "X" has had a shocker of a S15 season, that is no reason why he shouldn't be playing with the Wallabies in the RWC in NZ?! I've now replied to both you and Cutter, so that's it on this thread for me!
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Ok we will end it here. I've seen all those canards before and am comfortable saying they are all intellectually dishonest arguments with little to no substance anyway.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Mr Doug - you've given us nothing. Not even logical argument. Perhaps if you continue your wide spread reading you can look up non sequitur.
 

Cutter

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
From the smh http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...-and-flames-20110921-1klbe.html#ixzz1Yc6L36cX

Coal seam gas inquiry begins with heat and flames Ben Cubby
September 22, 2011
.''LOOK at that, isn't it great,'' said Peter Henderson, the chief executive of Metgasco, as he watched flames coil up from a coal seam gas well near Casino in northern NSW. ''There's plenty more where that comes from.''

The resources company Metgasco holds gas exploration licences covering 5800-square kilometres around Lismore and Casino, an area that produces beef and dairy cattle, sugar cane, nuts and fruit from its rich, chocolate-coloured soils.

It plans to expand this decade from the existing handful of coal seam gas test wells to about 1000 production wells dotted across the landscape, putting the district into the front line of a battle between farmers and environmentalists on the one hand and the rapidly growing gas industry on the other.

Advertisement: Story continues below When the first public hearing of a state parliamentary inquiry into coal seam gas was held in Alstonville yesterday, the mood was clear. Passionate opposition to the industry's growth in the region united doctors, cattle farmers, activists, town residents and organic produce growers.

''We believe coal seam gas is a significant threat to Australia's ground water,'' Mariann Lloyd-Smith, an adviser to the non-government group National Toxics Network. ''Our research has identified a number of environmental and health concerns.''

Dr Lloyd-Smith tabled research which identified the presence of 18 dangerous chemicals, including various dangerous carcinogens and endocrine disruptors, at gas extraction sites.

Many farmers told the Herald that building so many gas wells, and the associated roads and pipelines across private land, would destroy the rural character and physically carve up farms.

''They want to come right up under the water and past the house,'' said 75-year-old beef cattle farmer Rolly Harrison, of Kyogle, referring to a proposed high-pressure gas pipeline connecting Casino in NSW to Ipswich in Queensland.

Mr Henderson said that, despite the fears of farmers, dozens in the local district had already entered into agreements with Metgasco. ''There's a small part of the community that is quite radical and believes a lot of the misinformation out there,'' he said.

''People are losing sight of the fact that we are only going to be using about 2 per cent of the land anyway, so it shouldn't make that much difference. The footprint of a CSG well or a pipeline is actually very small indeed.''

Metgasco's land administration officer, Hamish Ramsay, is the person responsible for forging agreements with farmers. He said he had never experienced conflict with landholders over access. ''I'm from a farming family myself, and I wouldn't be working for this company if I didn't believe it was doing the right thing.''

Four local councils - Richmond Valley, Kyogle, Lismore City and Tweed Shire - gave evidence at the inquiry, but only Richmond Valley saw any benefit from coal seam gas production.

The other three were strongly opposed to gas production in its current form, and said health and environmental studies supported by industry were worth little to their residents.

''We are of the view that it is the role of the state government to undertake a substantial review into the environmental and health impacts of this industry,'' said the deputy mayor of Kyogle, Jenny Dowell.

The councils proposed a moratorium on any further drilling until the government had conclusively shown that the industry was safe, and that tensions between landholders and companies were resolved.

The inquiry will conduct further public hearings around the state before presenting a recommendations to the government by April.
 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
Cutter, perhaps you have trouble with the termination of relationships. Our "relationship" on this thread is over....get used to it! Bruwheresmycar has the nous to grasp that, whereas you obviously don't, or is it just that you feel you must have the "last word"..... always?
It's pointless for me to waste my time trying to convince you of facts that are supported by scientists, researchers, politicians and intelectuals around the world, that you refute.
 
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