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Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

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In the lineout

Allen Oxlade (6)
Ok, so Chatswood have forfeited rounds 5,6,7 & 9 so far.. Why after round 7 weren't they asked to explain themselves and inturn the Competition Manager (IE: SJRU) take appropriate action?

2014 SJRU Rules:
5.5 (H) The Competition Manager may disqualify any Team that forfeits three (3) or more Matches in a season. If a Team forfeits three (3) or more Matches in a season, they will be required to furnish an explanation to the Competition Manager as to why they should remain in the Competition. In this instance the Team will be deemed to have withdrawn from the Competition and Competition Rule 3.13 will apply and / or the Team will become ineligible to participate in the Final Series.

Just an update to above.

I note that Chatswood have a LOF against them against Hills today. That would make five forfeits now.

Come on powers that be, are you going to continue to pander to the elitise clubs for blatent rule abuse yet smash other clubs for minor issues?
 

Top Cat

Sydney Middleton (9)
Well X Factor just made NSW u17s, well done to him and the 2 other Hunter boys selected

Well Boof I was just about to eat my words and hang my head in shame but then curiosity got the better of me.

I just took at look at the SJRU U17's team and compared it with the SJRU U16's team that was at the Nationals last year and then I also thought that I had best take into consideration that some of last years U16's NSW Schools players that play in Sydney may have made this years SJRU side.

Guess what? Out of the 46 players listed last year there were only 2 players in this years SJRU team. I guess the rest are concentrating on their HSC ;).

Anyone, have any idea where all the players have gone?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
The drop off between U16 and U17 in SJRU is not a recent phenomena.

It happens every year and has done for many years. Something to do with all the talent wanting to get noticed at U16 National Champs (and having two pathways to achieve that) without 1st XV rugby getting in the way at U16 level, and commitments to 1st XV and no national tournament at U17 level to get noticed at.
 

Top Cat

Sydney Middleton (9)
The drop off between U16 and U17 in SJRU is not a recent phenomena.

It happens every year and has done for many years. Something to do with all the talent wanting to get noticed at U16 National Champs (and having two pathways to achieve that) without 1st XV rugby getting in the way at U16 level, and commitments to 1st XV and no national tournament at U17 level to get noticed at.


Hugh, So where have all the SJRU and Sydney based NSW Schools players gone from last years Nationals? Surely we haven't lost all that talent?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
They are mostly "locked" up in AAGPS or CAS 1st XV rugby programmes.

The physicality of Under 18 rugby is such that most can not play both school and club footy.

Training requirements for certain Schools do not allow time for kids to train for Village Club footy. Some schools 1st XV's are training up to 8 times per week. The kids also have to find time to do their school work.

Many kids would like to turn out for their club team, but these kids are often given Buckley's choice by the 1st XV coach who is not prepared to invest time and effort into a kid who may get injured in a Sunday Club game.

Those kids from the CCC or CHS system often turn to Colts rugby rather than SJRU to be challenged as U17 players.

The focus of the aspirational RockStars after U16 Nationals is on making Aust Schoolboys (U18 rugby) via the NSW 1, NSW II or Combined States team at National Schoolboys Competition. There is no second pathway via the village club system to get to Aust Schoolboys.

A few country kids get lost to the NSW country JRU system as they enrol in AAGPS, NSW CAS or even QLD schools for their Y11 and Y12 years.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
So at U17's NSW Country are not playing the top 23 City players but players who in all probability are not in the the top 50 or 60 but I guess a win is a win and it looks impressive to those that don't know.


They are playing the best U17 players from the SJRU U17 competition, with the occasional dispensation player from Colts who may no longer have a SJRU club team in their area.

Think of it a bit like the AAGPS 1st XV or ISA 1st XV. They are the best players selected from within their affiliated school rugby programmes. There not the top 23 players from the "City" in their age group although they probably contain more of them than the SJRU U17 team does.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
NSW 16's would beat NSW 17's by 50+


I agree with the sentiment but that will only happen if the three stakeholder groups and their selectors could ever put politics and pettiness behind them and select the best kids for NSW U16's from a level playing field.

You are not comparing oranges with oranges.

Either SJRU U16's (many of those selected are not regular Village club players in the true sense) or the NSW Schools U16's would beat NSW JRU Under 17 representative team by a lot of points, if the latter was selected from those kids who are genuinely playing junior village club rugby in Country or City Village clubs (not just those who meet eligibility criteria for State Champs).
 

Boof

Ward Prentice (10)
Well Boof I was just about to eat my words and hang my head in shame but then curiosity got the better of me.

I just took at look at the SJRU U17's team and compared it with the SJRU U16's team that was at the Nationals last year and then I also thought that I had best take into consideration that some of last years U16's NSW Schools players that play in Sydney may have made this years SJRU side.

Guess what? Out of the 46 players listed last year there were only 2 players in this years SJRU team. I guess the rest are concentrating on their HSC ;).

Anyone, have any idea where all the players have gone?


Most people would celebrate the fact one of their sons former team mates of some years was selected, give the kid a break. Anyone involved knows the schools pathway is the toughest to crack, both my sons have chosen this pathway and have enjoyed the challenge. You have two boys know not playing one due to injury and the other lost interest as you say. The fact that you went searching for reasons that this kid only made it because of the lack of opposition is kind of creepy and no different to the constant criticism you dished out about the majority of players in the rep team, the sideline selector ! Maybe you should have put your hand up to help solve these problems that you identify thru your lens but of course where your boys were never in line for negative comment. What you portray to be in this forum is utter BS. You have 2 talented sons on the rugby field, maybe they got sick of it being rammed down their throat. You are seriously just a whinger and won't be getting anymore of my time.
 

Top Cat

Sydney Middleton (9)
Most people would celebrate the fact one of their sons former team mates of some years was selected, give the kid a break. Anyone involved knows the schools pathway is the toughest to crack, both my sons have chosen this pathway and have enjoyed the challenge. You have two boys know not playing one due to injury and the other lost interest as you say. The fact that you went searching for reasons that this kid only made it because of the lack of opposition is kind of creepy and no different to the constant criticism you dished out about the majority of players in the rep team, the sideline selector ! Maybe you should have put your hand up to help solve these problems that you identify thru your lens but of course where your boys were never in line for negative comment. What you portray to be in this forum is utter BS. You have 2 talented sons on the rugby field, maybe they got sick of it being rammed down their throat. You are seriously just a whinger and won't be getting anymore of my time.


Well there you go with more BS accusations just like you did on another thread when you didn't have your facts right.

Go to top right, click on your name, then people you ignore ;)
 

Thomo77

Frank Nicholson (4)
Hi all.... 1st post, but after reading this forum for a while I thought I may have some value to add by providing a couple of recent anecdotes that, to me at least, clearly show why junior rugby is declining in popularity and will forever struggle to obtain a foothold in the growth corridors of Sydney.

My eldest boy plays in the U14's. Last year, they stepped out of Saturday rugby and into the Sunday 'A's' competition. For the 1st half of the season, they got flogged. The step up in class was huge and they really struggled. So what did they do? They trained harder. They benefited from the Two Blues rep program (which is massively under-resourced by comparison to other districts) and they never gave up.... they finished the season as runner up to a northern suburbs side that had kids travelling from well further west than where we are and was simply too good.... sour grapes? No way. We trained hard over the off season, went and recruited some talented kids that had never played rugby before and built off of that team.

The results speak for themselves.... trouble is, the competition is so heavily skewed around a handful of teams that the teams in the bottom half of the competition don't seem to want to play us..... so the boys have had to endure a number of last minute forfeits - which when you are travelling as far as we do epitomises not only how rugby has lost its way, but how society in general has lost its way in terms of common courtesy.... but I digress... the most recent forfeit was a debacle that is at the heart of what I'd like to share.

Our boys turned up to play Wahroonga a fortnight ago. Last time they played we beat them by 50 points and, by the end of the game, it was 13 v 15 and had evened out. On arriving at the ground they let us know they only had 13 players (despite signing on 15. Two of which, were supposedly being 'rested' to play for the SJRU team) and asked if we would play 13 a side. We agreed. The president of the SJRU just happened to be at the game, I'm not sure of his involvement in the club, or the reason for his presence, but he stepped in, advising that we had to provide a couple of players and play 15 a side - or we would risk forfeit in line with the rules, which wasn't an issue for us, but was where things got interesting...

The coach of the Wahroonga side wanted to 'pick' which of our players we 'shared'.... not surprisingly he 'picked' our number 8, who is an excellent footballer and another junior representative player, also very accomplished. Like most clubs, we have a long-standing tradition of first seeking volunteers - we think it allows some boys the opportunity to display sportsmanship and, sure enough, 2 of our boys volunteered - one was our starting halfback and the other a forward who regularly starts off the bench. After some 'carry on' we got on with the game.

What happened next was disgusting. In short, one of our blokes missed some tackles and the opposing coach embarrassed him in front of the crowd, abused him for incompetence and pulled him off the field. The resulting furore resulted in the abandonment of the game by the referee. The game is listed on Buddha as being 'played'.... despite parents FROM BOTH SIDES ruining the game for the kids. All involved should be ashamed of themselves. I am sure the coach of the Wahroonga side would be ashamed of the way he treated our young 'volunteer'... to his credit, he apologised to our player prior to departing the ground... but would this encourage you to continue to play if you were that kid? Or to travel all that way, if you were that parent?

The whole situation highlights a few points for me:

1. How can the president of the SJRU oversee such a shambolic incident? Was he unaware that Wahroonga had signed on two players who had no intention to play? Two players that just happened to be in the SJRU U14 side? Why is this ok?.... I don't buy in to the whole northern zone, western zone conspiracy rubbish... I just think it was poor form and epitomises what is wrong with the SJRU set up and why people vote with their feet. It's clear that the rules are not applied evenly and there are too many rules, which lead to too many exceptions, which leads to too many arguments and people simply giving up.... or all of the conspiracy theories.

2. Why couldn't the other team extend some common courtesy and let us know they wouldn't have numbers? This isn't an issue focussed solely at the coach / manager - I'm sure it extends to parents who are too damn rude to let them know they can't make it. It is possibly the most damaging advert for the players we have introduced to the game that come from a league background - we can't even put a game on, yet you can drive halfway across Sydney... oh, and we are resting a couple of our rep players too.

3. Where are our kids supposed to go to get a game if they are that dominant in an 'A' competition that some teams won't play them? They are big lads. My son played against them up until under 13s - so I know what it was like on the other side of the fence.... but it isn't the kids fault they are big. They play with a great spirit and good sportsmanship... I've watched the biggest amongst them pass up opportunities to put shots on much smaller kids and virtually nurse them to the ground... I've watched the same lad nearly bought to tears when he's accidentally injured an opposing player.... and don't have an answer. Do they need to play up an age group?.... then what happens to the smaller players in the team? Do they have to play elsewhere, despite, in some cases, having played with their mates from under 6's?

Final anecdote occurred this year out at Dural where a delightfully outspoken 'lady', apparently of some rugby 'pedigree', proceeded to announce to anyone within earshot that 'there's no way they're 14.... their birth certificates are all falsified'... she proceeded to tell anyone that would listen (and I found it sad that she had plenty of head-nodding listeners) that our boys birthdays all matched their christenings and not their births... blah, blah, blah, the typically polynesian birth certificate conspiracy. Wouldn't have a bar of it when we tried to show her the boys Aussie birth certificates and / or passports.... to try and quell the situation. She just kept on, and on. To me, it's blatant and rampant racism. My understanding is that because of her family ties to rugby people tolerate it.... what a shame. Rugby is a game for everyone. That is it's beauty. What was inspiring about that game, was that the Dural side, who were significantly smaller in physical stature, gave it to our boys physically and gave them the toughest hit out they've had all year.... thank god they weren't listening to the rubbish on the sideline.... I think we need to remember it's parents that bring kids to games... if you ostracise them based on race, they'll simply go somewhere else, where they feel comfortable.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Hi all.. 1st post, but after reading this forum for a while I thought I may have some value to add by providing a couple of recent anecdotes that, to me at least, clearly show why junior rugby is declining in popularity and will forever struggle to obtain a foothold in the growth corridors of Sydney.

1. How can the president of the SJRU oversee such a shambolic incident? Was he unaware that Wahroonga had signed on two players who had no intention to play? Two players that just happened to be in the SJRU U14 side? Why is this ok?.. I don't buy in to the whole northern zone, western zone conspiracy rubbish. I just think it was poor form and epitomises what is wrong with the SJRU set up and why people vote with their feet. It's clear that the rules are not applied evenly and there are too many rules, which lead to too many exceptions, which leads to too many arguments and people simply giving up.. or all of the conspiracy theories.

2. Why couldn't the other team extend some common courtesy and let us know they wouldn't have numbers? This isn't an issue focussed solely at the coach / manager - I'm sure it extends to parents who are too damn rude to let them know they can't make it. It is possibly the most damaging advert for the players we have introduced to the game that come from a league background - we can't even put a game on, yet you can drive halfway across Sydney. oh, and we are resting a couple of our rep players too.

3. Where are our kids supposed to go to get a game if they are that dominant in an 'A' competition that some teams won't play them? They are big lads. My son played against them up until under 13s - so I know what it was like on the other side of the fence.. but it isn't the kids fault they are big. They play with a great spirit and good sportsmanship. I've watched the biggest amongst them pass up opportunities to put shots on much smaller kids and virtually nurse them to the ground. I've watched the same lad nearly bought to tears when he's accidentally injured an opposing player.. and don't have an answer. Do they need to play up an age group?.. then what happens to the smaller players in the team? Do they have to play elsewhere, despite, in some cases, having played with their mates from under 6's?

Final anecdote occurred this year out at Dural where a delightfully outspoken 'lady', apparently of some rugby 'pedigree', proceeded to announce to anyone within earshot that 'there's no way they're 14.. their birth certificates are all falsified'. she proceeded to tell anyone that would listen (and I found it sad that she had plenty of head-nodding listeners) that our boys birthdays all matched their christenings and not their births. blah, blah, blah, the typically polynesian birth certificate conspiracy. Wouldn't have a bar of it when we tried to show her the boys Aussie birth certificates and / or passports.. to try and quell the situation. She just kept on, and on. To me, it's blatant and rampant racism. My understanding is that because of her family ties to rugby people tolerate it.. what a shame. Rugby is a game for everyone. That is it's beauty. What was inspiring about that game, was that the Dural side, who were significantly smaller in physical stature, gave it to our boys physically and gave them the toughest hit out they've had all year.. thank god they weren't listening to the rubbish on the sideline.. I think we need to remember it's parents that bring kids to games. if you ostracise them based on race, they'll simply go somewhere else, where they feel comfortable.

I sympathise with you and over the years have experienced some of those very issues.

Is it not against SJRU to sign on a player who is not going to play?

Since when does the team short have any say in which of the opposition fills in for them?

If the behaviour of the opposition coach is as described, he has no place in junior sport.

Many (not all by any means) upper north shore types think that they own rugby - particularly junior rugby. Don't worry, they look down their noses at Manly and Warringah teams as well. (not that it makes it right) Those like the lady you describe have a thing about polynesians - although they don't mind poaching them to suit their purposes.

I'm not sure what club you ar from, but there was a boy in about 12 or 13s from Western Raptors taken from Keirle Park last Sunday in an ambulance - if he has anything to do with your team or club I hope he's ok. (I think it was just a precautionary thing)
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
<snip> Those like the lady you describe have a thing about polynesians - although they don't mind poaching them to suit their purposes.

In my experience, those who have whinged the most about the big boy in the opposition team, are the first to ask if <insert big boys name> is in the District Rep team. Any previous concern about the size disparity of <insert big boys name> evaporates when they are in the same rep team as Oliver or Samuel for State Champs.

Racist and hypocritical.
 

Thomo77

Frank Nicholson (4)
Disgusting & simply mind blowing!

Suggest you send this to NSWRU CEO Bruce Worboys - BWorboys@nswrugby.com.au.

From my reading there are at least 2 respect rugby cases to answer to PLUS SJRU are funded by NSWRU, maybe he might care to hear direct, rather than rely on the interns to bring it through.


Thanks for the feedback and the support. One of the other dads wrote a pretty concise letter that I'll get a copy of and send over to Bruce.

The club is Blacktown - our 14's pretty much hold the club together and there are some very talented young lads amongst them - even better, they are a great bunch of young men...

This year has been quite a let down. We've had forfeits, had a game snipped short because of an issue with scheduling refs and an opposition who's parents were happy to avoid playing us... and the snide comments from the sideline. We've attended grounds where the parents can't be bothered to open a canteen, 'outsourced' first aid.... without ice.... the list goes on... it would be funny if it wasn't so terrible in contrast to our experiences with the organisation and support around junior rugby league competitions I've had exposure to... best part is I really don't think the kids care.... they just want to play rugby.
 

Boof

Ward Prentice (10)
Hi all.. 1st post, but after reading this forum for a while I thought I may have some value to add by providing a couple of recent anecdotes that, to me at least, clearly show why junior rugby is declining in popularity and will forever struggle to obtain a foothold in the growth corridors of Sydney.

My eldest boy plays in the U14's. Last year, they stepped out of Saturday rugby and into the Sunday 'A's' competition. For the 1st half of the season, they got flogged. The step up in class was huge and they really struggled. So what did they do? They trained harder. They benefited from the Two Blues rep program (which is massively under-resourced by comparison to other districts) and they never gave up.. they finished the season as runner up to a northern suburbs side that had kids travelling from well further west than where we are and was simply too good.. sour grapes? No way. We trained hard over the off season, went and recruited some talented kids that had never played rugby before and built off of that team.

The results speak for themselves.. trouble is, the competition is so heavily skewed around a handful of teams that the teams in the bottom half of the competition don't seem to want to play us... so the boys have had to endure a number of last minute forfeits - which when you are travelling as far as we do epitomises not only how rugby has lost its way, but how society in general has lost its way in terms of common courtesy.. but I digress. the most recent forfeit was a debacle that is at the heart of what I'd like to share.

Our boys turned up to play Wahroonga a fortnight ago. Last time they played we beat them by 50 points and, by the end of the game, it was 13 v 15 and had evened out. On arriving at the ground they let us know they only had 13 players (despite signing on 15. Two of which, were supposedly being 'rested' to play for the SJRU team) and asked if we would play 13 a side. We agreed. The president of the SJRU just happened to be at the game, I'm not sure of his involvement in the club, or the reason for his presence, but he stepped in, advising that we had to provide a couple of players and play 15 a side - or we would risk forfeit in line with the rules, which wasn't an issue for us, but was where things got interesting.

The coach of the Wahroonga side wanted to 'pick' which of our players we 'shared'.. not surprisingly he 'picked' our number 8, who is an excellent footballer and another junior representative player, also very accomplished. Like most clubs, we have a long-standing tradition of first seeking volunteers - we think it allows some boys the opportunity to display sportsmanship and, sure enough, 2 of our boys volunteered - one was our starting halfback and the other a forward who regularly starts off the bench. After some 'carry on' we got on with the game.

What happened next was disgusting. In short, one of our blokes missed some tackles and the opposing coach embarrassed him in front of the crowd, abused him for incompetence and pulled him off the field. The resulting furore resulted in the abandonment of the game by the referee. The game is listed on Buddha as being 'played'.. despite parents FROM BOTH SIDES ruining the game for the kids. All involved should be ashamed of themselves. I am sure the coach of the Wahroonga side would be ashamed of the way he treated our young 'volunteer'. to his credit, he apologised to our player prior to departing the ground. but would this encourage you to continue to play if you were that kid? Or to travel all that way, if you were that parent?

The whole situation highlights a few points for me:

1. How can the president of the SJRU oversee such a shambolic incident? Was he unaware that Wahroonga had signed on two players who had no intention to play? Two players that just happened to be in the SJRU U14 side? Why is this ok?.. I don't buy in to the whole northern zone, western zone conspiracy rubbish. I just think it was poor form and epitomises what is wrong with the SJRU set up and why people vote with their feet. It's clear that the rules are not applied evenly and there are too many rules, which lead to too many exceptions, which leads to too many arguments and people simply giving up.. or all of the conspiracy theories.

2. Why couldn't the other team extend some common courtesy and let us know they wouldn't have numbers? This isn't an issue focussed solely at the coach / manager - I'm sure it extends to parents who are too damn rude to let them know they can't make it. It is possibly the most damaging advert for the players we have introduced to the game that come from a league background - we can't even put a game on, yet you can drive halfway across Sydney. oh, and we are resting a couple of our rep players too.

3. Where are our kids supposed to go to get a game if they are that dominant in an 'A' competition that some teams won't play them? They are big lads. My son played against them up until under 13s - so I know what it was like on the other side of the fence.. but it isn't the kids fault they are big. They play with a great spirit and good sportsmanship. I've watched the biggest amongst them pass up opportunities to put shots on much smaller kids and virtually nurse them to the ground. I've watched the same lad nearly bought to tears when he's accidentally injured an opposing player.. and don't have an answer. Do they need to play up an age group?.. then what happens to the smaller players in the team? Do they have to play elsewhere, despite, in some cases, having played with their mates from under 6's?

Final anecdote occurred this year out at Dural where a delightfully outspoken 'lady', apparently of some rugby 'pedigree', proceeded to announce to anyone within earshot that 'there's no way they're 14.. their birth certificates are all falsified'. she proceeded to tell anyone that would listen (and I found it sad that she had plenty of head-nodding listeners) that our boys birthdays all matched their christenings and not their births. blah, blah, blah, the typically polynesian birth certificate conspiracy. Wouldn't have a bar of it when we tried to show her the boys Aussie birth certificates and / or passports.. to try and quell the situation. She just kept on, and on. To me, it's blatant and rampant racism. My understanding is that because of her family ties to rugby people tolerate it.. what a shame. Rugby is a game for everyone. That is it's beauty. What was inspiring about that game, was that the Dural side, who were significantly smaller in physical stature, gave it to our boys physically and gave them the toughest hit out they've had all year.. thank god they weren't listening to the rubbish on the sideline.. I think we need to remember it's parents that bring kids to games. if you ostracise them based on race, they'll simply go somewhere else, where they feel comfortable.


That is disgraceful behaviour by anyone involved in junior sport or really society in general. All clubs should parents on notice that if you can't leave your egos and agendas at the gate you will not be granted entry. Obviously these parents see your boys as a threat to their little Johnys right of passage like his Pa.
Opposition should be looking at your team as a challenge and rise to it and in doing so enjoy all that rugby has to offer. Good luck to your boys for the rest of the season.
 

Sir Lunchalot

Frank Row (1)
Thomo77, this is one of the most articulate, balanced and overdue postings about Club rugby I have seen. I am sure it will finds its way not only to the NSWRU offices but will also make its way into the inboxes of a few Sydney junior rugby union club presidents.

Thank you for obviously taking considerable time and care to collect and post your thoughts. I believe this could be the beginning of an important and long awaited groundswell in junior club rugby.

As for the lads from Blacktown U14s, I have had the pleasure of meeting them all both in interclub contests and in many of their efforts as Two Blues up at the Orange state champs. They are a credit to the club, their parents and themselves and are distinguished by their fair play, their positive attitude and their genuine affection and courtesy towards players and parents from other clubs.

There is a lot to be proud of in your boys. I only wish I could say the same for the behaviour of some parents in rugby who seem determined to live their lives vicariously through their children and even then they are not satisifed! Ironic this behaviour can lead their own children to give up on rugby.

Well done and well said. Best of luck to the lads for the rest of the season.
 
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