Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^^ That is a powerful motivating factor for a Private School's Business Manager and Head of School when trying to balance the budget and keep the annual increase in School Fees down to mere exponential rates, rather than the usual astronomical rate.

 

[I like to watch]

C'mon Big Arse,
Do the sums.
If AFL paid Scots College $1.7M to commence an AFL program.
That would translate to $1,000 per student.
That sort of a reduction wouldn't even be noticed by most parents.
It's not the cash,it's the program and ready made instructors,that would entice Schools IMO.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Poor example using Scots IMHO, given their alleged propensity to offer reduced fees to a large number of their students.

As you point out it is not only the cash injections, but the total AFL package that is attractive to resource strapped schools. If the AFL provide subsided jumpers, and free coaching, umpires, ground hire, balls, training equipment etc, then the Schools do not need to budget for those expenses or use their own staff to develop and run the programme. I would imagine that the last aspect is extremely attractive to the school.

 

[Runner]

Question? What is the ARU response to these AFL moves?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Question? What is the ARU response to these AFL moves?

 

[Hugie]

IMO a $1 spent on responding to AFL moves into rugby private schools would be a $1 wasted.
Why would you spend any money on 5% of the market (where you have almost as much presence as you are going to get), and ignore the 95% of the market where you have almost no presence?
By far the best return on limited ARU money will come from the CHS and CCC schools (in terms of players recruited/$).

 

[Runner]

I would suspect Hugie that you would need to protect your base and not ignore it while busily expanding elsewhere.

 

[I like to watch]

Well,CHS used to be considered the base (or a formidable part of it) didn't it.
I don't understand the busily expanding bit,where?

 

[Hugie]

Runner, in days gone by I would agree with you, this is what JON should have done when he had the chance (and cash). However, now the ARU is desperately short of money, as ILtW points out the CHS and CCC rugby has declined dramatically (they cover 85% of the boys and girls in NSW and Qld). So where to put what little money they have for promotion? In an area already well covered and will require a lot of money per player to defend, or in other areas that will require relatively less money to gain players.

It's really marginal economics.

You'll get the best gains for your effort in areas that you are weakest.

 

[Fat Cat]

Discussion paper

“Proposal to create younger age colt’s teams”

Stakeholders

• Senior premiership clubs
• Junior district clubs
• Village junior clubs
• Senior district club supporters
• Schools affected

Background

There has always been a void in the rugby union pathway from approximately under 15’s onward for boys wanting to play at a level appropriate to their ability.

Unless you attend a school that provides opportunity to play rugby at a reasonable level or are fortunate enough to play in an A grade village club team which are at these age groups are basically the district rep team, the pathway stops.

The options for boys wanting to play a reasonable level of rugby or rugby league are:

1. Leave your village club and move to another club which plays in a competition more appropriate to the level you want to play ie. The formation of super teams
2. Go and play rugby league ie. Harold Mathews etc.

Disadvantages of the above are village clubs being unable to field teams due to player drain from other village clubs or a commitment to school rugby.

The proposal

• To create an under 15 district rep team which plays on a Saturday, in conjunction with senior colts? This would become known as 4th grade colts (u/15)
• Third grade colts would become third grade colts (u/17)
• First and second grade colts would remain as U/20
• Village club teams whom are unable to field a team due to player drain combine two age groups
• Rep players to only play for the rep team or the village club team not both. Only one game per weekend.
• Points from the 15’s and 17’s to be included in the senior clubs championship points to encourage a proactive focus from the senior club on their juniors
• Teams to consist of U/15 boys for the 4th grade colts (u/15) team, and u/16 and u/17 boys for the third grade colts (u/17) team
• 4th grade colts (u/15), and third grade colts (u/17) to play every team once and not play during school holidays to allow for family, school, or other rugby commitments
• Weekends could be allowed for a northern, western and southern zone mini comp.

Squad Selection

• Talent identification from previous years team
• Talent identification from previous years village club comp
• Talent identification from pre season training squad
• Talent identification from pre season trial matches
• External player identification e.g. league
• Emphasis on commitment and minimum standards
• Emphasis on achieving pre set personal goals
• Shadow squad members to train with squad
• Transparency in squad selection with a integrated process between village, district, and the senior club

Advantages

• Elimination of the void in the rugby pathway from village club through to senior premiership rugby
• Creation of loyalty and allegiance to senior district clubs
• Creation of a skill development pathway through to senior level for all boys
• Creation of a pathway for coaching staff
• The ability for senior district clubs to field these younger age colts teams without the need to draw these players from village clubs, if necessary.
• The ability for weaker village clubs to hold teams together due to them fielding a single team over two age groups whilst also taking the stronger players out to create a more even village club competition.
• Less player burnout due to playing one game per weekend
• Works with the pathway for higher representative rugby.
• The ability for greater participation for more boys at a higher level
• May attract more rugby league players to the code.
• Assist in player identification for higher levels ie. Wallaby Gold Program and the National U/16 championships.
• Greater exposure for sponsors
• Player resources are not stretched, which happens quite often in these older age groups in some districts

Disadvantages

• Students whom play rugby for their school on a Saturday being unable to play in these teams. These players can still play for their village clubs if they wish.
• Districts that traditionally have a lot of private school boys ie. Gordon, North’s, East’s, and Randwick disadvantaged. This could be counteracted by their player base being broadened with players from other sources (e.g. league)which would end up being beneficial for the senior club
• Senior clubs need to associate themselves with the private schools in question and their players in order to keep a link with those particular player sources. This happens now anyway.
• The need to monitor and keep involved the u/16 boys whom don’t make the third grade colts (u/17) team. These boys can still play Harold Mathews league if they wish and village club rugby. Option to have a mini comp around Easter for the 16’s whom don’t make the 17’s team. These boys could still train throughout year with colts teams and still play village club rugby.
• Playing each team only once, there is a home and away issue. This could be counteracted by working the home and away draw over 2 seasons.

What cost?

The cost of this proposal would be similar or even less than it is now for the junior district clubs due to the elimination of the under 16 rep teams. Junior district clubs funding this proposal would take the financial burden off the senior clubs and create a stronger bond between the seniors and juniors, and a more streamlined and cost effective transition from juniors to seniors though integrated coaching and skill development.

Feedback

As this is a discussion paper feedback or constructive criticism is welcomed.

 

[Brainstrust]

Potentially the answer to some or many of these problems may lie with the structure and running of the comp not meeting the needs of its users, being the players and parents. The rule of thumb is that people vote with their feet. If the club system provided a structured development program for players that aligned itself with the ARU curriculum, and showed a year by year development program, less players would feel they were getting little from the whole process. I totally understand the mateship position and agree with it, but kids in sport is a competitive market place, not just because of competing sports but because of competing interests within our own game, so accordingly if we are serious about the club program, it's time to stop blaming every other code for doing their job, stop blaming the schools for running a competition, and genuinely start seeking answers and addressing the reasons why boys are not sticking with it. After coaching in excess of 10 years in junior rugby I cannot recall one meaningful approach, if any, about how to develop the game. There are many knowledgeable and engaged people in this game that get no airplay at all.. Starting point should be SJRU seeking direct feed back from coaches ( not club presidents) and parents as to what they see as the value and lack of value in the club system. From there they are a chance of saving this much loved game at the grass roots... But not before then..

 

[Quick Hands]

Feedback

As this is a discussion paper feedback or constructive criticism is welcomed.

Good to see a well thought out document with some sensible, progressive ideas.

A weakness short term would be that most of the boys targetted are already in the private school system, but long term this may go some way to stopping that drift.

I'm fairly certain that at least some of the boys who change schools about year9/10 do so because their local school doesn't play rugby and the junior village competition doesn't meet their needs.

 

[Quick Hands]

The government schools are where a lot of sport is dying not just rugby. teachers are saying no to outside school time sport so kids don't play unless their parents take them to a weekend club if one exists or it has teams in those age groups.

They have PE lessons instead up to year 10 and then can opt out of sport.

Some private school are now also diversifying with the introduction of AFL

And what sport there is in government schools has to be coached and managed by the teachers. Many of the rugby stalwarts in the CHS system are at or near retiring age, or have been promoted away from the coalface or have just had enough. Rugby is a particularly difficult sport to coach safely if you don't have a background in it, whereas sports like touch football, soccer and basketball can be coached at a basic participation level by most people without endangering the participants.

 

[Fat Cat]

As usual a lot of words fly around that have no constructive solution to making the game that I love even better.

Like it or not the game in Australia is perceived throughout rugby league circles, and by NZ as a game that is played by a bunch of private school toffs. This is further reinforced by the perception rightly or wrongly that if you want a decent pathway through to higher level rugby you need to go to a flash school, and the fact that if you are player in the SJRU after about 15 years old player numbers drop and there is no decent competition (as discussed in my above post). Which in the end must effect the colts ranks, shute shield, and above.

Some people might think why fix something that isn't broke ! Wallabies in the top half a dozen teams, a couple of world cups, stop bloody winging ! If we don't have enough numbers of quality players at the top get them from NZ SAF, or league !!!

If you want this game that I love to really be successful you need to -

1. Change the perception that people have of rugby. Make the game `a game of the people'
2. fix the pathway in a cost effective way, and make the game inclusive and accessable right the way through to the top for everyone who wants to have a crack at it​

It's great that the ARU is making some attempt to try and address the pathway and its accessability via the JGC, but I think we could get better results in a more cost effective way by tweeking our existing structures.

I realize I am talking just about Sydney at the moment, and that different areas need different solutions.

Lets try to work out positive black and white plans as solutions to the problems then send it to the powers that be at the top so they can shelve it

 

[Fat Cat]

And what sport there is in government schools has to be coached and managed by the teachers. Many of the rugby stalwarts in the CHS system are at or near retiring age, or have been promoted away from the coalface or have just had enough. Rugby is a particularly difficult sport to coach safely if you don't have a background in it, whereas sports like touch football, soccer and basketball can be coached at a basic participation level by most people without endangering the participants

exactly why club rugby is so important to the game. And why the everything revolving around the schools is not the way to go, it needs to be an integrated approach.

 

[Quick Hands]

And what sport there is in government schools has to be coached and managed by the teachers. Many of the rugby stalwarts in the CHS system are at or near retiring age, or have been promoted away from the coalface or have just had enough. Rugby is a particularly difficult sport to coach safely if you don't have a background in it, whereas sports like touch football, soccer and basketball can be coached at a basic participation level by most people without endangering the participants

exactly why club rugby is so important to the game. And why the everything revolving around the schools is not the way to go, it needs to be an integrated approach.

Welcome to the fight.

I think even the NSWRU and ARU might be starting to wake up to the issue.

 

[Runner]

Fat Cat says in a piece of his well structured comments

Change the perception that people have of rugby. Make the game `a game of the people'

Interesting point as I can recall numerous occasions where at games of rugby people ask what was that penalty for?

Look at the number of rules for a line out and scrum and make it more understandable for all. League, soccer, basketball etc. is much simpler with the number of laws.

 

[BeastieBoy]

We have boys playing for their village clubs who drop off. Why? They reach adolescence and the ame gets more physical and they are too sore to back up. OK play the games Wednesday giving them the maximum time to recover either side. How to restore the numbers that have been lost to the introduction of soccer a generation plus ago, and now afl.plus the parents who don't want their son hurt in rugby. Get touch in the schools as a summer sport in primary. Once a boy runs with the ball in hand it's hard to go back. The league are funded and it chock up rugby in the schools. Get what we have working to its best and stop the decline. Then go forward.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Fat Cat says in a piece of his well structured comments

Change the perception that people have of rugby. Make the game `a game of the people'

Interesting point as I can recall numerous occasions where at games of rugby people ask what was that penalty for?

Look at the number of rules for a line out and scrum and make it more understandable for all. League, soccer, basketball etc. is much simpler with the number of laws.

As Hugh jarse's signature says:
Rugby is a wonderful show: dance, opera and, suddenly, the blood of a killing. - Richard Burton
I don't want to watch "home and away".
Besides which our cousins across the ditch don't have an issue with the complexity of the laws.

 

[Fat Cat]

Change the perception that people have of rugby. Make the game `a game of the people'
the rules of the game are not the issue and even if they were part of the problem I don't think you will change them. I was talking more about the fact that there is a perceived class distinction between league and union.
I don't think we should be worrying about soccer, afl or league we should just concentrate on the ways we can broaden our own base of players and supporters from the bottom up.

Beastie boy I don't think Wednesday nights would work due ground availability with adequate lights and distances to travel on a school night, another night taken up during the week. and again we are pandering to the schools and their structure.