Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I'm confused: do you think they should have been or shouldn't have been put on probation?
Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby
- Thread starter Quick Hands
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I'm confused: do you think they should have been or shouldn't have been put on probation?
Shane Smeltz
Fred Wood (13)
No IS, sorry I am the one who is confused.
There are now two teams with multiple players with red cards.
However this probation works, and I don't know how it works, both teams have finished the rest of the season without seemingly any recourse.
The only difference is that Coogee had to forfeit two games and HH, with their large playing pool and ability to call in extra players from all over Sydney at any time, did not.
There are now two teams with multiple players with red cards.
However this probation works, and I don't know how it works, both teams have finished the rest of the season without seemingly any recourse.
The only difference is that Coogee had to forfeit two games and HH, with their large playing pool and ability to call in extra players from all over Sydney at any time, did not.
The whole process is reliant on honesty with the Opposition Manager being the check and balance in the system.
If the Manager does not record the Red and Yellow Cards on the score sheet that they submit to SJRU then as far as the Competition Manager is concerned the event didn't happen.
The Score Sheet is supposed to be checked and signed off by the Referee, Touch Judges (AR's) and the Opposition Manager. In the event of a Red Card, the Referee is supposed to submit a report through the referee association, which finds its way to the Competition Manager. That is the theory.
In reality, Referees are very busy people and sometimes just sign the score sheet without checking, particularly if both Managers are not disputing anything. Same with the AR's, bearing in mind that the AR's are highly likely to be aligned with the participating teams.
Some Managers will allow "anomalies" on the score sheet through, particularly if it is in their teams favour, provided that "anomaly" is not picked up by the opposition manager or Referee/AR. Example can be an incorrect player number listed in the SO or SB column, especially if the correct player number may result in a "technical red card" for a second yellow card in the season for one of their star players.
http://juniors.rugby.com.au/Portals/1/Images/Sydney Juniors - Competition Playing Rules - 2014 - Version 11 - 20140303 - Final.pdf
Turning to the cited example, The Team would qualify for an automatic probation on the basis of breaching the Unacceptable Number of Suspensions. Depending on the number of teams at Hunters Hill, and the discipline record of those teams, the Hunters Hill Club may also be placed on probation. Not much happens at this stage apart from the team needing to remind players about the Code of Conduct etc, but if you read rule 12 (link above), if more suspensions occur, then the Competition Manager has a variety of tools at their disposal to 'encourage" compliance.
The situation with the U16A's would suggest that the Competition Manager (or SJRU Committee) is somewhat reluctant to bring the full weight of their powers to bear on clubs/teams in breach of the Competition Rules.
What happens to the two lads Red Carded on 15 June?
Rule 12.2.9 deals with this. If the referee deems the offence to be low range, the player may make an early guilty plea and be stood down for one round (first offence only), although this provision is not available in the case of allegations of abuse of match officials, so our two lads are off to Judiciary.
If they played on 22 June, then Judiciary must have cleared the players of any wrong doing, or the Referee may not have submitted a report on the incident, and there may have been "confusion" on the score sheets.
Justice can be a funny thing sometimes. Remember this is Kids sport and supposed to be fun. Some associated with our sport have forgotten this, and play for sheep stations and have become addicted to basking in the reflected glory of the achievements of their offspring.
If the Manager does not record the Red and Yellow Cards on the score sheet that they submit to SJRU then as far as the Competition Manager is concerned the event didn't happen.
The Score Sheet is supposed to be checked and signed off by the Referee, Touch Judges (AR's) and the Opposition Manager. In the event of a Red Card, the Referee is supposed to submit a report through the referee association, which finds its way to the Competition Manager. That is the theory.
In reality, Referees are very busy people and sometimes just sign the score sheet without checking, particularly if both Managers are not disputing anything. Same with the AR's, bearing in mind that the AR's are highly likely to be aligned with the participating teams.
Some Managers will allow "anomalies" on the score sheet through, particularly if it is in their teams favour, provided that "anomaly" is not picked up by the opposition manager or Referee/AR. Example can be an incorrect player number listed in the SO or SB column, especially if the correct player number may result in a "technical red card" for a second yellow card in the season for one of their star players.
http://juniors.rugby.com.au/Portals/1/Images/Sydney Juniors - Competition Playing Rules - 2014 - Version 11 - 20140303 - Final.pdf
Turning to the cited example, The Team would qualify for an automatic probation on the basis of breaching the Unacceptable Number of Suspensions. Depending on the number of teams at Hunters Hill, and the discipline record of those teams, the Hunters Hill Club may also be placed on probation. Not much happens at this stage apart from the team needing to remind players about the Code of Conduct etc, but if you read rule 12 (link above), if more suspensions occur, then the Competition Manager has a variety of tools at their disposal to 'encourage" compliance.
The situation with the U16A's would suggest that the Competition Manager (or SJRU Committee) is somewhat reluctant to bring the full weight of their powers to bear on clubs/teams in breach of the Competition Rules.
What happens to the two lads Red Carded on 15 June?
Rule 12.2.9 deals with this. If the referee deems the offence to be low range, the player may make an early guilty plea and be stood down for one round (first offence only), although this provision is not available in the case of allegations of abuse of match officials, so our two lads are off to Judiciary.
If they played on 22 June, then Judiciary must have cleared the players of any wrong doing, or the Referee may not have submitted a report on the incident, and there may have been "confusion" on the score sheets.
Justice can be a funny thing sometimes. Remember this is Kids sport and supposed to be fun. Some associated with our sport have forgotten this, and play for sheep stations and have become addicted to basking in the reflected glory of the achievements of their offspring.
SS, so Coogee are 'arguably' the second best team. Ok records don't show that, but what ever. I know the Cloey boys will be up for it and should be congratulated on making the GF 2 years in a row. Both Cloey and HH are well coached teams who play an expansive form of Rugby. Worth watching next week at Concord.
The Northern Suburbs U15 District Team at NSW JRU State Championships included 18 players listed as from the Hunters Hill Club.
The Randwick U15 District Team at NSW JRU State Championships included 16 players listed as from the Clovelly Club.
Coogee had 6 in the Randwick U15 Team, 5 in the Southern Districts U15 Team and 1 in West Harbour U15 Team.
These sort of numbers suggest that there is merit in the current suggestions that A Grade Junior Competitions for U15 and above should be District based rather than Village Club based.
The Randwick U15 District Team at NSW JRU State Championships included 16 players listed as from the Clovelly Club.
Coogee had 6 in the Randwick U15 Team, 5 in the Southern Districts U15 Team and 1 in West Harbour U15 Team.
These sort of numbers suggest that there is merit in the current suggestions that A Grade Junior Competitions for U15 and above should be District based rather than Village Club based.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Correct HJ. The reality seems to be that it is a district based competition in practice, but it's left to the juniors.
Your post at #903 suggests that many rules are observed more in the breach than in the observance - particularly when dealing with teams full of rep players.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Hence the need for this thread.
As someone who's been around for too long and whose kids play/have played quite a few different sports, I just can't believe what goes in in junior club rugby in 2014.
I think I've said more the once this year words to the effect "I've never seen or heard of anything like this happening" Sad that it happens in rugby.
You still run across plenty of great people, but I've run into more unpleasant characters this year than I've encountered in a long, long time. For some people, outsmarting your opponents off the field before the match even starts and skirting around the spirit of the competition rules is the norm.
mangled
Frank Nicholson (4)
I can't agree with the argument about A grade being district. . What about the kid that plays with his Mates on the weekend but enjoys the challenge of playing state champs. .. why should we let the over zealous ruin it for the rest of us. .. there are alot of nasties in this sport but let's not let them dictate.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Unfortunately in the new world order that has been created by the Sydney wide competition, those boys will have to make a choice. It's the unintended consequence of a Sydney wide competition. I don't like it, but it seems to be the reality. In the Manly area for example, none of the junior clubs can run an A team after 12s - so the A grade players gravitate towards one team and all the rest (who aren't interested in A grade) play with their mates in the lower levels.
If this doesn't happen you're going to end up with A grade competitions that have 2 or 3 teams. One of the issues with this year's 16As was that there were apparently a large group of boys who had no interest in playing As.
In the lineout
Allen Oxlade (6)
Has anyone heard about the HH v Raptors U16 QF yesterday? I have been informed HH turned up with 7 "new" players that were not on the sign on sheet, no photo ID.....and that this was all cleared by the Competition Manager!
Now its just a phone call I received today so won't pass judgements just yet....however, if this is the case then the junior rugby really has dropped to very sad levels
Now its just a phone call I received today so won't pass judgements just yet....however, if this is the case then the junior rugby really has dropped to very sad levels
Blindside63
Stan Wickham (3)
There were a number of the U15A Hunters Hill boys back up from their QF at Hawkesbury to make up the numbers for the Mosman Hunters Hill U16A in their QF against the Raptors at Mittigar.
In the lineout
Allen Oxlade (6)
Is that allowed during the final series. Honestly don't know?
Blindside63
Stan Wickham (3)
It is ok as long as Hunters Hill and Mosman Hunters Hill are considered the same club. Players can also qualify from lower grades in the same age group.
LucyPomPom
Frank Row (1)
Three of the boys who played for Mosman/HH were also from their B grade team who had lost their own semi earlier in the day.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I hear that there has been a protest over Sunday's game and it is not yet confirmed that Mosman/HH 16A's will be grand finalists.
Edit:hold the phone - GF Raptors v Hills - Mosman/HH sound like they must have been chucked
Edit:hold the phone - GF Raptors v Hills - Mosman/HH sound like they must have been chucked
In the lineout
Allen Oxlade (6)
I thought something was sus about it.....
Shane Smeltz
Fred Wood (13)
Here I was thinking that HH are above the SJRU laws/rules.
I said to my son, don't worry about it, they'll get away with it.
Not this time. Very interesting.
I said to my son, don't worry about it, they'll get away with it.
Not this time. Very interesting.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Quite odd - you suggested it had been cleared by the competition manager. I'm sure you know how "connected" HH to the SJRU so its even more strange that if the comp manager cleared it they got stung later.
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