Continued decline in Sydney Junior Rugby

[S'UP]

I'd like to see how that will work for a district like Eastwood, we are lucky to have 2 teams in each age group (Dural and Beecroft mostly). But lets look at our 15's, we have 2 15B's (beecroft and North rocks) between them they won a massive 4 games, drew 1 and lost 13 and had a for and against of -194, our other team was in 15C's and lost every game with a for and against of -131. As the so called better side in the 15B's Beecroft has 12 rep level players, howcould a team who only won 3 games in 15B's be able to play A grade. They would get lapped by 50 every week.
This would be the case for most districts, there just isn't enought players in most districts to play A grade. If they bring this in you may as well say goodbye to all the C,D and E grade players that play B grade or C grade as that is the only grade their club has, this is the same club they have been playing with for 7+ years they will be lost to the game. Whoever thought this one up just isn't thinking.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^If there aren't enough players in most districts to play A grade, what does that say about the A grade competition? If it's too good for most rep teams, we're in a lot of trouble.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'd like to see how that will work for a district like Eastwood, we are lucky to have 2 teams in each age group (Dural and Beecroft mostly). But lets look at our 15's, we have 2 15B's (beecroft and North rocks) between them they won a massive 4 games, drew 1 and lost 13 and had a for and against of -194, our other team was in 15C's and lost every game with a for and against of -131. As the so called better side in the 15B's Beecroft has 12 rep level players, howcould a team who only won 3 games in 15B's be able to play A grade. They would get lapped by 50 every week.
This would be the case for most districts, there just isn't enought players in most districts to play A grade. If they bring this in you may as well say goodbye to all the C,D and E grade players that play B grade or C grade as that is the only grade their club has, this is the same club they have been playing with for 7+ years they will be lost to the game. Whoever thought this one up just isn't thinking.

I'm interested in your comment there aren't enough players in each district to play A grade. I'm not having a go at you because I agree with most of your comments in your posts and the ones I don't agree with are logical. You seem to be saying this applies to all age groups, but the 15s in particular. (Refresh my memory, but is this the age group with a team which wins every week by a cricket score - including reps?)

What is your solution for the A grade competition? (generally and in the 15s in particular) Because if what you say is correct there are almost no teams who are good enough to play in it, which is a big problem because as teams are shuffled down the gradings aren't the teams with multiple rep players going to do the same to C, D & E grade teams who don't have any rep players? Aren't you just shifting the unfairness from one group of players to another?

I am actually stunned that there are boys who are rep players who don't want to play A grade, but want to play district representative rugby.

 

[mangled]

There are alot of boys happy to play village rugby with mates but enjoy the rep program as a separate thing... Not all players are in it for them selves.. I know of Many boys that played in Club comp and got thrashed each week and rep coaches kept telling them that they should swap clubs so they could play higher grade each week....... loyalty still exists

 

[Quick Hands]

There are alot of boys happy to play village rugby with mates but enjoy the rep program as a separate thing. Not all players are in it for them selves.. I know of Many boys that played in Club comp and got thrashed each week and rep coaches kept telling them that they should swap clubs so they could play higher grade each week... loyalty still exists

Good to hear, although I'm taking about teams which have 12 rep players and are playing in C competitions (and flogging their opponents)

 

[mangled]

That fine but your last paragraph implied that you were stunned that a single player would not want to play a grade... my mistake ?

 

[Quick Hands]

That fine but your last paragraph implied that you were stunned that a single player would not want to play a grade. my mistake ?

Poorly worded on my part.

 

[S'UP]

I'm interested in your comment there aren't enough players in each district to play A grade. I'm not having a go at you because I agree with most of your comments in your posts and the ones I don't agree with are logical. You seem to be saying this applies to all age groups, but the 15s in particular. (Refresh my memory, but is this the age group with a team which wins every week by a cricket score - including reps?)

What is your solution for the A grade competition? (generally and in the 15s in particular) Because if what you say is correct there are almost no teams who are good enough to play in it, which is a big problem because as teams are shuffled down the gradings aren't the teams with multiple rep players going to do the same to C, D & E grade teams who don't have any rep players? Aren't you just shifting the unfairness from one group of players to another?

I am actually stunned that there are boys who are rep players who don't want to play A grade, but want to play district representative rugby.

I can only talk about Eastwood and i'll just cover 3 age groups (you have the details for the 15's, clearly those rep player made no difference to the results in their competitions and the 15's didn't win a game at the state champs.
13's Eastwood has 3 teams Dural 13B came 3rd f/A +69, Beecroft 13B 6th f/A -110, Beecroft 13E 5th +88, from memory the rep side consisted of boys from both B's and one E.
14's Dural 14A 6th f/a -76, Beecroft 14B 3rd +107, Beecroft 14D 4th -67
reps fairly evenly split.
16's Dural 16A 6th -127, Beecroft 16B 1st +204 (B and C grade were joined together to make on Grade of B, the top 4 teams were very close) reps split evenly between both teams. they came second at the state champs at 15.
I would say that there would only be the following true A graders in each rep team and this is meant with no disrespect to the boys involved, 13's : 0, 14's : < 5, 15's : < 5, 16 : < 10.
I don't think we should stop boys playing reps just because they play B, C or D grade as the experience is great and they come away better players but you can only select who you have, we could take GPS boys but we don't as we want to support boys who play SJRU.
I would suggest there are only 4 true A grade teams in each competition, but SJRU persist in wanting 6 or 8 teams so they push B grade teams up and they get flogged each week, then everyone else has to go up, so then every grade is hurt.
I don't have the answer for an A grade comp under SJRU while schools continue to do their own thing, there just isn't the boys to make a competitive comp, hence why the state champs is also failing.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^^Your comments confirm the impression that I'm getting.

 

[S'UP]

^^^Your comments confirm the impression that I'm getting.

Ok I'll bite what impression is that?

 

[Shane Smeltz]

I'm interested in your comment there aren't enough players in each district to play A grade. I'm not having a go at you because I agree with most of your comments in your posts and the ones I don't agree with are logical. You seem to be saying this applies to all age groups, but the 15s in particular. (Refresh my memory, but is this the age group with a team which wins every week by a cricket score - including reps?)

What is your solution for the A grade competition? (generally and in the 15s in particular) Because if what you say is correct there are almost no teams who are good enough to play in it, which is a big problem because as teams are shuffled down the gradings aren't the teams with multiple rep players going to do the same to C, D & E grade teams who don't have any rep players? Aren't you just shifting the unfairness from one group of players to another?

I am actually stunned that there are boys who are rep players who don't want to play A grade, but want to play district representative rugby.

QH, yes I have reported about the Hunters Hill 15As who generally do win their games by a cricket score and also the state champs as Norths. They can also conjure up a bench of 8 fit strapping players at short notice (some registered that morning but we won't go there).
The difference between this team and the rest of the 15As is almost astronomical with the exceptional of Clovelly, and sometimes Coogee when they can drum up a team, not often due to red cards and injuries.

There were just six teams in the 15As this year and I can report that about three teams may not be coming back due to unable to field teams as shown by the high number of forfeits on Buddha.

The SJRU solution for 2015? I am guessing bung some B-grade teams up into As to make a viable A competition for the 16As.
(We all know what happened to the 16As this year but that was for an entirely different reason)

There is one other factor that has been mentioned before in this thread - in this age group a lot of boys play league and 16s league is played on a Sunday at about the same time as 16 union. That may cut out a few Hunters Hill and even Clovelly/Coogee players.
Therefore equalising the A-grade, but at the same time lessening the pool of available players. Even for Hunters Hill.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The SJRU solution for 2015? I am guessing bung some B-grade teams up into As to make a viable A competition for the 16As.
(We all know what happened to the 16As this year but that was for an entirely different reason)

I would have thought it was pretty much the same reason - but maybe I'm missing something.
I think the more interesting number will be to compare the 15's given that 2015 will be the first season where boys going into 15s will be aware that playing 15s will not grandfather them for 16s.
My hunch is there will be a drop off - a lot of boys "put up with" 2 games in 15s every weekend to get a shot at 16s.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Not only has the grandfather rort clause been removed, but I reckon that the cancellation of the National U16 tournament will also impact on the numbers of talented boys playing Club Footy to (legitimately) try for a second chance at a jumper for the National U16's.

 

[Quick Hands]

Ok I'll bite what impression is that?

That there are only 3 or 4 genuine A teams in any particular age group.

 

[Quick Hands]

QH, yes I have reported about the Hunters Hill 15As who generally do win their games by a cricket score and also the state champs as Norths. They can also conjure up a bench of 8 fit strapping players at short notice (some registered that morning but we won't go there).
The difference between this team and the rest of the 15As is almost astronomical with the exceptional of Clovelly, and sometimes Coogee when they can drum up a team, not often due to red cards and injuries.

There were just six teams in the 15As this year and I can report that about three teams may not be coming back due to unable to field teams as shown by the high number of forfeits on Buddha.

The SJRU solution for 2015? I am guessing bung some B-grade teams up into As to make a viable A competition for the 16As.
(We all know what happened to the 16As this year but that was for an entirely different reason)

There is one other factor that has been mentioned before in this thread - in this age group a lot of boys play league and 16s league is played on a Sunday at about the same time as 16 union. That may cut out a few Hunters Hill and even Clovelly/Coogee players.
Therefore equalising the A-grade, but at the same time lessening the pool of available players. Even for Hunters Hill.

Interesting that the other half of the Norths rep team played in C grade (and won the GF by 30)

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Looking for something else, I stumbled on this policy on Minimum Playing Time that has been introduced in NZ. I reckon that there could be benefit in adopting a similar rule over here.

Minimum playing time
All players in a named squad of 22 players or less at all levels of below First XV grades must play half of a game each match. Our 2013 Teenage Rugby Review highlighted minimum playing time as something that would attract and retain teenage rugby players.
http://www.allblacks.com/News/24210/enhancing-player-safety-with-dslv-s

This is apparently further clarified:
Minimum Playing Time
All players in a named squad of 22 players each playing Saturday at all levels below Secondary School First XV grades are required to play half of a game each match. There will be no rolling subs. At halftime any reserves that are present
must take to the field before the second half starts. This also applies to representative games at levels Under 16 and below.
http://www.harbourrugby.co.nz/media/files/2014-Teenage-SmallBlacks-RugbyLaws-UPDATE.pdf

 

[Inside Shoulder]

^^^I like that rule.
But why not make it more equitable still: I'm no mathematician but something like this:
Each child has to be slated to get the same amount of time with, say, a 20% tolerance. i say "slated" to account for injuries etc.
There's a lot of angst about playing time to my observation and if every kid and parent knew that the aim would be to give them the same amount of time as to the team wunderkids a lot of that angst would vanish.

 

[Quick Hands]

^^It's a great rule, although it's a pity that it needs to be made a rule in the first place.

Whenever I coach a junior team I use the interchange to get most boys on for 2/3rds of the match. Any coach who doesn't give a kid at least half a game is kidding himself and shouldn't be involved in junior sport.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

At best we have this rather aspirational wet lettuce leaf statement in the NSW JRU Code of Conduct for Coaches:

"Seek to maximise the participation and enjoyment for all players regardless of ability; avoid the tendency to over-use a talented player; treat all players as equals, regardless of their talent."

Reference: http://www.juniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/1.4_NSWJRU_Code_of_Conduct_FINAL.pdf Section 2. ii


I reckon the Kiwis may have it right by keeping it simple and nominating a half of footy as the time period. For a coach and manager it is very simple to manage that.

While the suggestion of "Equal playing time +/- 20%" is probably a better concept, the detailed managing of that would create a more significant administrative effort than simply running the bench on at half time.


BTW Anyone know if any JRU Coach has ever been cited for being in breach of the Code of Conduct?

 

[Quick Hands]

At best we have this rather aspirational wet lettuce leaf statement in the NSW JRU Code of Conduct for Coaches:

"Seek to maximise the participation and enjoyment for all players regardless of ability; avoid the tendency to over-use a talented player; treat all players as equals, regardless of their talent."

Reference: http://www.juniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/1.4_NSWJRU_Code_of_Conduct_FINAL.pdf Section 2. ii


I reckon the Kiwis may have it right by keeping it simple and nominating a half of footy as the time period. For a coach and manager it is very simple to manage that.

While the suggestion of "Equal playing time +/- 20%" is probably a better concept, the detailed managing of that would create a more significant administrative effort than simply running the bench on at half time.


BTW Anyone know if any JRU Coach has ever been cited for being in breach of the Code of Conduct?

You expected anything other than a wet lettuce leaf from NSWRU/NSWJRU?