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Eddie Jones - 20-20 Cricket

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the gambler

Dave Cowper (27)
Eddie has had an interesting attack at the ELVs. For the full article go here
http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,3555_4057397,00.html

I cant be bothered debating ELVs but the bit I will highlight is this ...

''Around the world most people want to watch Test rugby. There are pockets around the world who want to see Twenty20 cricket so let's make Twenty12 rugby.

''We could have 12 players, 20 minutes each way with no scrums or line-outs.

''As the game becomes more professional another form of the game could develop. Sevens hasn't been a success as entertainment.

''It might do well in Hong Kong and Wellington, but around the world. You might find another form of the game springs up eventually.''

Interesting concept. I must admit I much prefer playing and watching 10's to 7's as it is a bit like rugby but still alot of fun. The sevens series is great fun, but could it go to the next level by being a 10's tournament?
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
I enjoyed playing 10s on the few occasions I had the chance. 7s is not interesting at all, unless they halve the size of the field.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
I've reffed a few games of 10s for schoolboys, 14/15/16 years of age, who hadn't played much rugby and we all thoroughly enjoyed it. 10s has the structure and feel of 15 man rugby but a lot less complications. There used to be an international schoolboy 10s competition at Macquarie University every year that was extremely popular. This is how those in charge should be trying to get rugby to the great unwashed.

Aaaahhhhh, I'm almost agreeing with Eddie Jones. I'll have to give myself a yellow card. :D :D :D
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Eddie has been whinging about the ELVs since the start.

This is nothing new
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I was thinking that if rugby got into the Olympics it should be a 10s tournament. Much more like real rugby than 7s, but has the ability to finish in a two week period.
 

the gambler

Dave Cowper (27)
Lindommer said:
I've reffed a few games of 10s for schoolboys, 14/15/16 years of age, who hadn't played much rugby and we all thoroughly enjoyed it. 10s has the structure and feel of 15 man rugby but a lot less complications. There used to be an international schoolboy 10s competition at Macquarie University every year that was extremely popular. This is how those in charge should be trying to get rugby to the great unwashed.

Aaaahhhhh, I'm almost agreeing with Eddie Jones. I'll have to give myself a yellow card. :D :D :D

That 10's tournament used to be the only time schoolboy rugby was on tv. I think King's used to host quite a big junior 10's tounament for 13/14yr olds with teams like Lloyd McDermott playing against clubs and some schools.

Glad people agree that 10's is the way forward. I thought I was the only one.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
I saw the other about this 10 men rugby for the first time. Look like they want to stage a big one including a lot of x international players. Cant find the article but it do interest me. So you basically play with 5 forwards (no loosies) and 5 backs? Sound a bit better then 7 where you have no place for a fatty.

Regarding Eddie Jones take on the ELVs have me in a :nta: Always thought that it will suite the gameplan he played with the Brumbies and also his take on Snor trying to play the wide game. Look like he spent to long time with the Bulle & Saracens at late.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
EJ (Eddie Jones) is all over the place. Bashing the ELVs. Bashing Snor. He's an odd fellow.

I assume that part of all this is to promote his mate Meyer (sp?) back into the Springbok job.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Scarfman said:
EJ (Eddie Jones) is all over the place. Bashing the ELVs. Bashing Snor. He's an odd fellow.

And an unashamed media tart. Just a few subtle words here and there, slipped in to cause major damage. I wish he'd shut up and get on with coaching Saracens.
 

Virgil

Larry Dwyer (12)
Lindommer said:
Scarfman said:
EJ (Eddie Jones) is all over the place. Bashing the ELVs. Bashing Snor. He's an odd fellow.

And an unashamed media tart. Just a few subtle words here and there, slipped in to cause major damage. I wish he'd shut up and get on with coaching Saracens.

We all have opinions, blame the journo's for printing his :)
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Eddie will have a theory about 87.5% of rugby matters 93.6% of the time but I have my own thoughts:

? People in the NH should wait until the end of the northern winter before making categorical comments about the ELVs. Even then, some of them will be proved wrong subsequently.

? People in the NH outside of France will be howling against the ELVs at least until the end of the year, then will get more used to them. More will like them as the season progresses. More still will like them a year later.

? The omission of the free klck regime with its more frequent recognition of infringements that are overlooked in standard law because now ?it?s only a free kick?, will lessen the number of ?tap and goes? compared to their occurrence in the S14 and 3N. This will produce a slower version of ELV matches, which has been confirmed by a one game sample (Toulon v. CA). Thus it will not disadvantage immobile dinosaur players so much.

? Many plausible objections to the ELVs will fail.

? Opinions that if standard law was refereed correctly there would be no need for change have been commonplace for the last 2 decades and prevail today, and even more so since the ?threat? of the ELVs has been manifest.

Since the referees have failed in their implementation of standard law, some experimental law variations which purport to force players to play the game in the manner intended would seem to be appropriate. If the referees fail in their implementation of ELVs, opinions that the IRB shouldn?t have bothered to introduce them will be proved correct.

? Teams that attempt to succeed playing Sevens rugby, or attacking rugby to a fault, as the All Blacks did in Sydney, will fail and their fans will moan about the ELVs the most. Teams that get a structured game together within an ELV framework will succeed, as the All Blacks did in Auckland a week after their Sydney failure.

? There will be a bit of ping pong kicking at the start of each half, because of the constraints on gaining ground when kicking out on the full, but this will diminish as players tire and running endeavours get a bigger premium. However the average number of kicks per game will be a lot fewer than the number of 90+ in the abominable 2007 RWC final.

? Teams with long range punting fullbacks and wingers will kick the ball more than other teams; those that have good broken field runners at the back will run the pill more than they ever have. The salaries of outside backs who can do both will increase. The salaries of those who can regularly land their kicks just outside an opponent?s 22, will increase most.

? Teams that chase kicks best and can realign fastest as the ball changes hands will succeed more than teams that don?t.

? Coaches who think that they will succeed if they use props who are mobile but not good scrummagers will be disappointed. The scrum 5M offside line ELV makes producing good scrum ball, or denying it to the other team, more important than under standard law. The salaries of mobile, good scrummaging props will increase, especially those that play on the TH side.

? Lineouts will be fewer than under standard law and coaches will use mobile non-giraffe second rowers more often, especially below the test match level.

? The elegant theories that ?no numbers? in the lineouts will be harmful will be forgotten soon and the death of this law for the sake of having a law will be unmourned.

? Comments above that a faster game of footie is not necessarily a better game are correct. If it were, all rugby union fans would be watching rugby league, all league fans would be watching Aussie Rules and nobody in the world would be watching the NFL, which is all set piece.

However, after watching a collection of the ELVs in Oz games over two winters I report that the rugby I have watched in that time has been more enjoyable to myself and the overwhelming majority of people I have spoken to including general sports fans who have no particular affinity for rugby union.


The above comments are of a marginal nature but would not be so if the free kick regime was introduced.
 

the gambler

Dave Cowper (27)
Do you want me to copy paste Dodges response?

I personally think that removing the free kick sanction law is the biggest tragedy of this whole process.
 
S

Spook

Guest
the gambler said:
Do you want me to copy paste Dodges response?

I personally think that removing the free kick sanction law is the biggest tragedy of this whole process.

Agreed.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Yeah it's been a pity because one wouldn't be able to get a proper perspective of how one ELV impacts on another.

I think that the IRB thought that including the FK sanctions would make it too hard a sell to the world outside of the 3N and PI nations.

If a majority of NH stakeholders in the game become happy with the 1st August 2008 ELVs, they may become more receptive afterwrds to the free kick sanctions if the IRB give them a nudge. If they do become receptive a two stage stratagem may turn out to be astute.


In my eyes the following are the important ELVs that will change the game in a positive way:

1. The constraint on gaining ground if the ball is kicked out on the full after being put back over the 22M line to the kicker.

2. The 5M offside line at the scrum.

3. The free kick sanctions.

The rest are fluff.

As I have said a few times: it is a pity that the S14 referees didn't do a better job with cards and introducing penalties more often under the foul play law for repeated infringements as the Sydney refs did in the 2007 Sydney club comp. Had they done so the IRB may have thought fit to introduce the ELV FK regime in the NH with the others.

Objectors to the ELVs in the NH will point out that if the refs can't referee the ELVs as they were intended then we may as well go back to the old laws which they also can't referee properly. This will slow the game down to the pace they are used to and which they enjoy more.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Spook said:
the gambler said:
Do you want me to copy paste Dodges response?

I personally think that removing the free kick sanction law is the biggest tragedy of this whole process.

Agreed.
Yep, some people that did not know about this changes thought the CC were now playing with the old rules. It change the pace back.
 

emuarse

Desmond Connor (43)
Eddie has had an interesting attack at the ELVs. For the full article go here
http://www.planet-rugby.com/Story/0,18259,3555_4057397,00.html

I cant be bothered debating ELVs but the bit I will highlight is this .



Interesting concept. I must admit I much prefer playing and watching 10's to 7's as it is a bit like rugby but still alot of fun. The sevens series is great fun, but could it go to the next level by being a 10's tournament?

Seeing as it's the 1st Jan 2013, the start of a new year, I got to thinking when was the first post that could be read on G & G, and here it is from 28th August 2008, nearly 4.5 years ago.

During this time, the most posts I can find for any thread is for Waratahs 2012, with 3,775. The next most popular thread is "Quade telling it how it is", with 2,689.
 

Scoey

Tony Shaw (54)
On the 10's vs 7's thing - I haven't seen much 10's but have watched plenty of 7's and have played neither.

I think in 7's there is far too much space - hence teams recruiting sprinters (Carlin Isles - USA) and turning them into 7's players. Anything that carries the name of Rugby should also carry the spirit of Rugby. By this I mean, you should need a decent set of skills (other than just running fast) and as PaarlBok so eloquently put it; there needs to be a place for the fatties. Or players of all shapes and sizes.

Don't get me wrong, watching Carlin with a little bit of space outside, gas it and absolutely burn the defender before he knows what's going on is exciting to watch. But I can get that on YouTube. A shortened form of Rugby should still resemble something like Rugby. T20 Cricket, if you pause it, still looks like cricket. Everything about it. They modified the rules to create the space needed for more expansive and exciting play not cut the amount of players by more than half.
 

MrTimms

Ken Catchpole (46)
Staff member
I've played 10s and it is very much still rugby, especially compared to 7s.

I think it may have gone too far now and 7s is to "embedded".

Perhaps, like VHS v Beta, the best format hasn't won out.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I much more prefer 10's rugby over 7's... I am however a forward at heart..

With all the investment pouring into 7's its hard to see 10's getting a foothold though.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I think 10's is a much better game too.

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