Eddie Jones Stormers, No, Wait, England coach

[Teh Other Dave]

The Reds were heading south long before Eddie Jones took the reins, the rot set in when they sacked Mark McBain who took them to the finals in the previous season, for Andrew Slack.

 

[Blue]

I wonder how Eddie's coaching by numbers will go down with English players, I not rubbishing Eddie, but I do tend to think he coaches a very systems type of game!

What like the one Japan played?

That was not an overcoached team. That was a bloody well coached team.

 

[Blue]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
so Eddie's lack of interest in the scrum will deprive the poms of the one thing they had going for them

It is widely known that he placed a huge emphasis on the scrum in Japan over the last couple of years so I am nut sure where you get that from.

The Japanese scrum was really solid.

No modern coach will have a lack of interest in the scrum for the simple reason that they know how hard it is too win wihtout at least parity. Jones is no fool. He will play to the Poms strengths but he will get them to execute a hell of a lot better than they have for a long time. That is what we should all be worried about.

HE is just the coach they need right now. They have had enough chest beating types who gets the players worked up into a frenzy in the locker rooms. The game has moved on from that. They need someone analytical with an eye for detail and who will make the right selection decisions. Lancaster was a fucking disaster of behemoth proportion.

I get it. A lot of you guys don't like Jones but a lot has happened since he coached Australia.

 

[Blue]

People are still banging on about him playing two 7s too..


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Did he really have any other choice at the time?

 

[I like to watch]

He followed Rod Macqueen at both the Brumbies and the Wallabies and, frankly, brought nothing new to a very successful table.

His singlehanded destruction of the Reds is the worst example of terrible coaching in thw history of the game.

You didn't see any Reds games this year?

 

[Gnostic]

I find it amazing that Jones is being judged on the basis of ancient history with the Wallabies and most importantly for some posters the Reds.

I still think that Jones was attempting to get ahead of the curve in term of Rugby development in how the game was being played trying for the multi-skilled no numbers on the back type player, where everyone did everything. Yes he ignored the scrum to the detriment of that set piece for the next decade, but even I can see the reasoning (even if I don't agree with it) that the lineout provides far more primary possession and if concessions to the homogeneous player type playing all positions has to be made it will be in the second row, and he was blessed with some pretty handy locks at the time.

None of this excuses the fact that he was disastrously wrong in some aspects, like the often referred to "play by the numbers" and the scrum but he was ahead of the game in terms of wanting multi-skilled players, backs who could cleanout the ruck and secure possession, back rowers and props who could run and pass the ball.

At the Reds I am still at a loss as to what happened. Maybe somebody who was actually involved with the Reds at that time can enlighten us. But that was just a total disaster.

All that said it is a long reach to say that Jones is a poor coach, given what he has achieved with Japan. They played beautiful attacking rugby was some of the best set piece execution from any team at the RWC. He has obviously learnt some hard lessons from his past experiences bring in specialist coaches for both the scrum and lineout, and despite the significant physical disadvantage that the Japanese squad faced that achieved some pretty remarkable results.

I am far, far more concerned that Jones will be coaching England than if White or Deans was doing the job.

 

[KOB1987]

Did he really have any other choice at the time?

I'll get back to ya ;-)


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[Quick Hands]

I get it. A lot of you guys don't like Jones but a lot has happened since he coached Australia.

I've never quite worked out why there is the level of hate for Eddie Jones in Australian rugby - particuarly from Queensland.

I'm not saying he's the pre-eminent coach of his generation, but he's had more success that a lot of other coaches at the elite level.

Brumbies 1998-2001 - They came 10th in 1998, so the suggestion that he inherited a champion team and rode on the coat tails of his predecesor is a fallacy. In 2000 they lost the final to the Crusaders and in 2001, the Brumbies became the first non NZ team to win the super rugby title.

Wallabies 2001-2005 - Won the Tri series 2001, Won the Bledisloe Cup in 2001 and 2002 (remember folks when we used to win that) and in the 2003 RWC we defeated the ABs in the semi-final and lost the final to England with a field goal at the end of extra time.

2005 wasn't that great - a big injury toll and we went through a bit of a losing patch and he was sacked.

All in all, not a bad record there, not perfect, but if I was ever the coach of the national team and that was my record, I'd be happy.

Let's then turn to the Reds - he is apparently to blame for all that is wrong with the Reds in the minds of some. He coached them for 1 year - 2006, but what happened in the years before?

2000 - 7th
2001 - 4th
2002 - 5th
2003 - 8th
2004 - 10th
2005 - 10th
2006 - 12th

So it's not like he took over some highly successful outfit and stuffed it. They were mediocre when he started and they came 14th in 2007.

In the years following things didn't really change that much despite his departure.


2008 - 12th
2009 - 13th
2010 - 5th

So maybe the decade long malaise of Reds rugby had more to do with the administration than the coaches?

He's since had success in various other professional coaching roles.

So in a professional coaching career of 17 years, he's had two bad years 2005 and 2007.

And lastly, I'm not an Alan Jones hater by any means, but Alan calling someone a control freak - give me a break.

 

[Tigs Man]

Eddie in his first interview basically saying:
- Got great depth of young players
- Needs to keep strong set piece and bulldog spirit, but to be able to play when England needs to.
- Instead of central Contracts wants to focus more with building a positive relationship with PRL.
- Captain not decidec needs to be first name on team sheet (Not robshaw then)
- Overseas based policy stays, you want to play for England you have to play in England
- Coaching staff not decided will look at current coaches make a choice.
- Wants to have a English head coach set up to take over post 2019, looking at mainly England coaches in assistant roles.

 

[Strewthcobber]

So it's not like he took over some highly successful outfit and stuffed it. They were mediocre when he started and they came 12th in 2006.

In the years following things didn't really change that much despite his departure.


So maybe the decade long malaise of Reds rugby had more to do with the administration than the coaches?

Got your years a bit wrong QH. He coached the reds in 2007 and they came (a very very poor) 14th.

And I don't think you'll find too many supporters if the administration from then either.


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[The_Brown_Hornet]

There is no doubt that Eddie did an excellent job as a consultant to Jake in 2007 and subsequently Japan, but I don't lament his leaving the Wallaby job at all. We were a very poor team, especially in the forwards, when he departed and have only recently started to gain some respect back in that area. I think there is a good chance he'll do well with England. They've got a welter of good young players and plenty of resources. I have absolutely no doubt they'll be competitive again. I'm nervous about the three test series against them next year, because I think he will coach them a lot better than the previous lot. He'll also pick a genuine openside too I reckon. Cheika will be hatching all sorts of plans to get one over his old Randwick mate I'm sure.

If England can discover some of that old Galloping Greens running footy to go with their forward power they could be a very very good team again. That is if Eddie doesn't turn everyone against him in the mean time (which has happened).

 

[Teh Other Dave]

Jones can hardly be considered the cause of Queensland's dark ages, either side of his sole season as coach, they finished 12th of 14. Hardly anything to write home about. As has already been mentioned my myself and others, the QRU had been a shambles before Jones's arrival; Mooney and Link were helped by some key changes in admin and playing personnel, which revived the Reds. I couldn't think of a coach that would have led the 2007 team to a finish of better than 13th.

 

[KOB1987]

Did he really have any other choice at the time?

There's always the choice I guess. Looking at the team for the 2003 final the bench loosie was Matt Cockbain. A selection of other random games from 2003 where they started together revealed names like Finegan, Lyons and Kefu as the bench selection.

I think that much like Hooper and Pocock today, it came down to Smith and Waugh being among the first few names to be written on the team sheet. Granted they were much more like for like players than the current duo so it involved a different strategy, but it still worked.

 

[Dan54]

What like the one Japan played?

That was not an overcoached team. That was a bloody well coached team.

I agree Blue, not saying he overcoaches, but firmly believed when he coached Wallabies, they played a very systematic style of rugby, and club had a coach that had been to a lot of his coaching schools, who also seemed to coach the same. As I said I not knocking it, just I am certain his style of coaching wouldn't suit all teams, I don't think it would work in NZ, and was simply wondering how well it will go with England. There is always the chance that his style has changed too!!

 

[Quick Hands]

Got your years a bit wrong QH. He coached the reds in 2007 and they came (a very very poor) 14th.

And I don't think you'll find too many supporters if the administration from then either.


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My mistake, jotted the wrong year/s down while compiling the stats - but the essential argument is the same. They were a rabble when he got there and he wasn't able to change it in less that 12 months.

 

[Quick Hands]

There is no doubt that Eddie did an excellent job as a consultant to Jake in 2007 and subsequently Japan, but I don't lament his leaving the Wallaby job at all. We were a very poor team, especially in the forwards, when he departed and have only recently started to gain some respect back in that area. I think there is a good chance he'll do well with England. They've got a welter of good young players and plenty of resources. I have absolutely no doubt they'll be competitive again. I'm nervous about the three test series against them next year, because I think he will coach them a lot better than the previous lot. He'll also pick a genuine openside too I reckon. Cheika will be hatching all sorts of plans to get one over his old Randwick mate I'm sure.

If England can discover some of that old Galloping Greens running footy to go with their forward power they could be a very very good team again. That is if Eddie doesn't turn everyone against him in the mean time (which has happened).

There's no doubt that he's an abrasive character, but so in his own way is Michael Cheika.

Eddie Jones deserves criticism for not putting enough emphasis on scrummaging at the end on his Wallaby tenure and it's perfectly justifiable to hold him to account for that. But I disagree strongly with the premise put by some that he is therefore responsible for the following 7 or 8 years of Wallaby scrummaging. I think Michael Cheika has proved that this aspect of the game can be improved quite quickly - even from a low base.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It is widely known that he placed a huge emphasis on the scrum in Japan over the last couple of years so I am nut sure where you get that from.

Did you not watch the wallabies when he was coach?

 

[Blue]

Did you not watch the wallabies when he was coach?

Seriously do you really think he is stuck with the same philosophy.

The very first thing he said in press conference after apologising to the Stormers yesterday:

"The strength of English rugby has always been the set-piece and we don't want to take that away. We want to have that bulldog spirit in defence. But we have to add things and I need to look at the players we have available and then work out what we can add to our game."

You really think this guy is dim, or ypu hate him. And that's okay but ten year old arguments are moot.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I dont think he's dim.
I think he is manipulative.
Its not a 10 year old argument: its an argument based on what he did 10 and less years ago. he inherited a world champion team and got one last gasp out of it.
As a matter of interest what do you think his philosophy was when he was in charge of the Wallabies or the Reds, for that matter - was it the same or different in each case?

 

[wamberal]

Did anybody mention Bill Young? How he survived so many collapsed scrums is a thing of wonder.