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Federal ALP Opposition 2013-?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by boyo, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

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    On a few of those points you raised and others.

    Land tile went through under Fraser and in some ways lead to the Hawke government and its failed ATSIC policies. Why? To me the focus of the debate became land rights an area which has been very divisive in the country and caused many to lose sympathy with the aboriginal cause. The debate should have been about the other issues we are really just getting to now with leaders like Noel Pearson who see the focus on education, health and welfare as more important.

    The debt point is easy in that Whitlam was there to start the expenditure but not there to see the bill. Consequences we see today with people still believeing that Medibank was free rather than see that the Commonwealth now created a system where debts would rise overtime in the system. Why not get rid of it, well some changes have been tried and blocked and the Lib's learned that if you say it's free then the electorate will not want it to go away. Hawke and Keating made varipus changes to cut cost and even tried a co payment system for awhile.

    Today there are some 8000 public servants that oversee the medical system working for the Federal government but employing only a handfull of doctors and nurses and running one hospital directly. Work out the wages and super for each who in Canberra.

    Remember also health, education aboriginal affairs, dept of environment all in Canberra are really state responsibilities but have heaps of public servants duplicating the process. Consequences of decisions made many years ago.

    The same with free education which simply created overtime more costs that Hawke and Keating saw was unsustainable and introduced HEC's so slow things down. A mess we are still trying to sort out today.

    As for Hockey he is in the same boat as the Fraser govt and Howard -- debt was created by others. It can take decades for some of the decisions to have a full impact.
    formerflanker likes this.
  2. formerflanker Alan Cameron (40)

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    Lucky PS: hostile and the leaders in massive wage rises under Clyde Cameron.
  3. Ruggo Mark Ella (57)

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    This is just crap. If you had the slightest knowledge of Indigenous culture you would know that. It is and has never been simply a land grab. This is just a classic example of conservative ideology presuming things are black and white (absolutely no pun intended). You like so many others prescribe Anglo Western values of what the land (country) is about.

    I call bullshit on the second bolded paragraph. Depends on the Commonwealths international law obligations. Take the environment, Tasmanian dams case has set precedent that the Commonwealth clearly has a stake in environmental matter. Plus it is extremely ironic that health being a state matter didn't stop Howard from taking over a hospital in Tasmania in a marginal seat in an election year.

    The third bolded part is contradictory to say the least. It can take decades for some of the decisions to take full impact, yet you claim Howard paid off the debt rather than the economic reforms kicking. It would really hurt the conservatives to see that Howard was in the right place at the right time.
    The Red Baron likes this.
  4. wilful Larry Dwyer (12)

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    We're never going to agree but I put it to you simply. Medicare and a vast array of other things that Whitlam did have stood the test of time and the Libs haven't dared touch them. This is in fact the fucking point of democracy. We're not here to serve the economy, it is here to serve us. When the born-to-rule mob while about "unsustainable spending", all that they are saying is that they prioritise their dividends over the health and wealth of the average Australian. There's really nothing more than that. Hockey sayign we've got a debt problem is the biggest load of utter horseshit I've heard in many years - you can't remove a range of relatively efficient taxes (mining tax, carbon tax), reintroduce rorts and "special considerations" (super tax concessions, novated leasing) and promise a massive new parental leave scheme then whinge about the previous mob.
  5. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

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    Rather than just copying the whole comments above.

    Ruggo
    I'm soory but I think you misunderstand my point. Land Rights overtook the real social issue of health etc. It created mistrust and lost aboriginal issues, across the board, support in the whole community. A community that a few years earlier had massive support for aboriginal rights as shown by the referendum result.

    Using the corporates act in Tasmania set an interesting precedent that no govt has really wanted to follow again.

    "The resulting court case became known as Commonwealth v Tasmania. On 1 July 1983, in a landmark decision, the High Court on circuit in Brisbane ruled by a vote of 4 to 3 in the federal government's favour. Judges Mason, Murphy, Brennan and Deane were in the majority and justices Wilson and Dawson with Chief Justice Gibbs were in the minority. This ruling gave the federal government the power to legislate on any issue if necessary to enforce an international treaty and has been the subject of controversy ever since." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Dam_controversy

    In Howard's case of the Tasmanian hospitalthere was an agreement between the state govt and federal govt not a court case. Pork barrelling perhaps.

    No I have said before in these forums that much credit goes to Hawke and Keating reforms that assisted Howard. However Howard didn't go of on a mad spending spree that could have made things worst. He took the situation and made it work for the country.

    Worth remembering that one of the downfall of Whitlam was the 30% wages explosion lead by the then leader of the ACTU Bob Hawke. Something that required the Accord process and cuts in real wages over a period of time to rectify.

    Wilful

    Remember the PPL is not govt funded.

    The Libs have taken as did Hawke the easy way with Medicare to get elected
  6. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    2 things Runner.
    There was no one issue that caused Gough's downfall.

    The PPL WAS to be totally funded,and paid for by the Federal Government.
    The Coalition intended to raise an additional 1.5% surcharge on a Large companies that they estimated would match the cost of their largesse.
  7. Teh Other Dave Phil Hardcastle (33)

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    On a tangent, I don't even believe that PPL will significantly enhance female workforce participation, especially at the higher echelons of the professions and the corporate world.
    I work in a field where it is very difficult to progress if you take extended time off for any reason, and I know my particular area is not unique. There is a slow, reluctant acceptance that women wishing to take maternity leave (paid or otherwise) should be able to do so, but it's still not far from career suicide; heaven help any man who chooses to take a couple of months off for unpaid paternity leave. This is the real issue - culture.
    When a father or mother can take a few months off to care for a child and not be viewed as a liability, we'll see much greater female workforce participation, and I'd like to think that fathers having access to paternity leave (again, not necessarily paid) would see greater male participation in the household.
    Throwing public money at the problem smacks of another populist middle-class pork barrelling from the same mob who brought you the baby bonus and the first homebuyer's grant.
  8. Ruggo Mark Ella (57)

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    Let's not go Greg Hunt here Runner and go for Wikipedia. Here is something more substantial about the Tasmanian Dams Case.

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/high_ct/158clr1.html

    It is a precedent that has served the nation over several environmental issues. Howard in 1999 structured the EPBC Act around it.

    In regards to the land rights issue, I am going to agree to disagree with you. In saying that, I live in a part of the country where the issue is at the center of most things. Also I don't know huge amounts about indigenous culture but I have been exposed to it throught my life.

    Regarding Howard, he didn't need to go on a spending spree. Tell me another PM that inherited 13 years of hard economic reform when he took office? Not perhaps but absolutely so, his hospital action was without doubt pork barreling.
    I like to watch likes this.
  9. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

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    The biggest benefit will be for women in small business and rural areas. Seems strange that must better provisions apply for women who are in the public service. So a female tax payer is providing a usually higher paid, mostly job secure public servant these benefits
  10. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

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    Wiki is good to present points simply and yes there are more complex sources but this is a blog rather that an academic reseach centre.

    Happy we can difer on land rights. I'm not in opposition to it as such but thought it diverted the cause.

    Lets not forget the debt left by Hawke and Keating.
  11. boyo Mark Ella (57)

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    Let's not forget the debt left by Fraser and Howard.

    And, according to the IMF, John Howard was the most profligate P.M. in Australia's history.
    Ruggo likes this.
  12. boyo Mark Ella (57)

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  13. Ruggo Mark Ella (57)

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    And don't forget the economic recovery that paid it off. The structural reforms took effect and as I said earlier, Howard was in the right place at the time.

    Wiki has it's place, I don't doubt that but nothing wrong going for something a little more credible when talking about the law. The source I gave was not a hard one to find.
  14. Runner Nev Cottrell (35)

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    Hpoward was the beneficiary but it still rtequired him to make the correct calls and decisions. Somrthing the Rudd/Gillard?Rudd cou;dn't do.

    Now look at the debt and the pathethic respose of the killer of both Bill
  15. Brumby Runner Rod McCall (65)

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    Was unsewered in large parts of the Pittwater peninsular area of Sydney; very much a blue-blood Liberal (as in conservative) domain. For a humourous look at the peninsular before sewerage, have a read of Frank Hardy's "The Outcasts of Foolgarrah". Foolgarrah being an alias for Warringah if I'm not mistaken. Seems on the money given where the current PM's electorate is.
  16. boyo Mark Ella (57)

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  17. boyo Mark Ella (57)

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