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Federal Election 2013

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I'm really not sure whether it was relating to the 6 senate spots per state regardless of population or what, but there is some gold in there!

Mr KEATING —is a discussion of a matter of public importance about `the continuing erosion of Loan Council standards under the Keating Government'. Guess who it is proposed by? The honourable member for Bennelong! This is the guy who took the Loan Council authority over State borrowings from 95 per cent to 25 per cent. We are the guys who have put it back to 100 per cent. And he is proposing a matter of public importance against us about the erosion of Loan Council standards! As I have said before, you have more front than Mark Foy's, son. But this one surprises even me.
When I became Treasurer the States could do as they wished; they borrowed and they had all sorts of chicanery to get around Loan Council requirements with the so called off-program borrowings. It says here:
Against the background of the above developments in State and local government borrowings, the Commonwealth proposed at the Loan Council meeting on 21 June 1984 that a system of `global' limits on Commonwealth and State authority borrowings be adopted.
Guess who was in government on 21 June 1984? We were. In other words, we established the global borrowings to bring back under control that which you had let run rampant. That is, you were asking us then to pull down the Commonwealth deficit, which you left us—nearly 5 per cent of GDP—and, while that was happening, blurting out the back of the public sector were State authorities' borrowings, totally out of control.
We have set up a system since then which has put the globals back in place. We roped into the globals such things as operating leases. We have got enhanced reporting standards on all State Budgets so that they are the same, as the Statistician would require for the compilation of national statistics. We have dealt with people who want to erode the globals, as I did with Victoria when I was Treasurer under the VEDC. When the then Premier, Mr Cain, sought to imply that equity should become debt, I made him unwind the arrangements. But one Treasurer borrows and turns a short term borrowing into a medium term borrowing—no more money is borrowed; a short term borrowing just becomes a medium term borrowing—without telling our Treasurer and our Treasurer immediately responds and tells him he has to regularise it and you, who let 75 per cent of borrowings run everywhere, have the gall to get up and talk about the Loan Council and to set up a Senate committee. Then you want a Minister from the House of Representatives chamber to wander over to the unrepresentative chamber and account for himself. You have got to be joking. Whether the Treasurer wished to go there or not, I would forbid him going to the Senate to account to this unrepresentative swill over there—
Opposition members interjecting—

Mr SPEAKER —Order! The House will come to order.

Mr KEATING —where you are into a political stunt.
Mr Downer interjecting

Mr SPEAKER —Order! The honourable member for Mayo will cease interjecting.

Mr KEATING —There will be no House of Representatives Minister appearing before a Senate committee of any kind while ever I am Prime Minister, I can assure you. Let me make this point: the Opposition totally corrupted the finances of this country by letting the Loan Council run riot and letting it fall to pieces. The coalition parties, who were supposed to be the sentries at the gate, let the whole system run amok. You are the people who let the finances haemorrhage all over the place. As usual, it took a Labor government to sweep up after you, to put the new global requirements around States' borrowings—
Mr Reid interjecting
Mr Carlton interjecting

Mr SPEAKER —Order! The honourable member for Bendigo! The honourable member for MacKellar!

Mr KEATING —and to let the authorities in. Then, when one Treasurer of a State in a decade turns a short term borrowing into a medium term borrowing, you think you have a national issue. Well, you can think again. As the Treasurer said quite eloquently a few moments ago, whatever happens over in the Senate—they want to inquire about these processes—the history of the Loan Council will be very interesting when it reflects upon the honourable member for Bennelong and the honourable member for Wentworth. He was the adviser. He was giving advice about how they ought to let the States run riot in their borrowings. How much front do you need to have to actually pursue that policy and then climb all over the government which has corrected what it thinks is a major problem?
Dr Hewson interjecting

Mr SPEAKER —Order!

Mr KEATING —I just had to show how duplicitous you were, and the honourable member for Bennelong. Look at Howard's little number: `The continuing erosion of Loan Council standards under the Keating Government'. I quote:
`The main factors accounting for this development' were that `in 1979-80, Loan Council approved programs accounted for 95 per cent of total State and local authority borrowings, but that proportion had fallen to 25 per cent in 1983-84. The main factors accounting for this development were the decision, at the meeting—
Mr Cadman interjecting

Mr SPEAKER —I warn the honourable member for Mitchell.

Mr KEATING —This is not a long term thing; this is actually induced by the policy of a Treasurer—the honourable member for Bennelong—at Loan Council on 24 and 25 June 1982. He presided over a Loan Council meeting with a recommendation from him—the honourable member for Bennelong—to allow 75 per cent of States authorities' borrowings outside of the Loan Council. And he has the gall a decade later to get up and talk about the continuing erosion of the Loan Council under us.
This is a joke. The Victorian Premier made it clear yesterday when he said, `I'm not interested in this matter in the past. That's been regularised. Let's get on with it and do things for the people and public of Victoria'. Let that make it clear to the people and public of Victoria that J.L. Hewson—
Opposition members—J.L.?

Mr KEATING —the Leader of the Opposition, has set about delaying their economic recovery. He is about up-ending the progress.
Mr Somlyay interjecting

Mr KEATINGYou can have your nervous laugh; you know it hurts.
Mr Bradford interjecting

Mr SPEAKER —Order! The honourable member for McPherson.

Mr KEATING —He is about standing between the decisions of the Kennett Government and this Government to restore the momentum of Victoria's recovery by getting the finances of the Victorian Government sorted out and regularising these Loan Council arrangements. At the coming Loan Council meeting which the Treasurer said we will have concurrently with the COAG meeting in December, we will be looking at certain changes to procedures. These will all be in advance of any Senate committee hearing. That is why the Senate committee hearing in the hands of the Liberal Party will be, as every other thing it has ever proposed, a stunt.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Hmm, I always thought it was a reference to only needing 47,000 votes in Tasmania as opposed to 575,000 votes required in NSW.

Yeah, well, that's the price NSW and Vic paid for agreeing to go into Federation with the minor states. Keating's outburst conveniently forgets lower house seats, a majority of which allows the winner to form government, are all roughly 90,000 voters. The fact senate quotas are different for the states and territories is quite beside the point: upper house electorates/quotas are evenly distributed for state and/or nation for most of the Australian parliaments. Apart from Queensland, that is.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
Ah! remeber it was Keating who also increased the number of senators in each state. Wonder why?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Meanwhile in the Senate from the West is the Wayne Dropulich from the Australian Sports Party, who's main platform is Childrens Sports according to this article from the SMH.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...ties-claim-senate-balance-20130908-2te36.html

While he only received 1908 first preference votes of the approx 900 000 WA senate votes, he gets there on preferences.

Hopefully he can live up to his parties platform and get some decent money into kids sport to attack the obesity epidemic, and Wallaby succession planning.

Latest news from the Electoral Commission seems to be that old mate from the Australian Sports party has missed out on a seat in the Senate.

Shame really. He could have livened up proceedings in the Senate.
 

rugbyskier

Ted Thorn (20)
Ah! remeber it was Keating who also increased the number of senators in each state. Wonder why?

It was Hawke who increased the number of Senators in 1984. Hawke decided to increase the number of members of the House of Representatives from around 124-125 to 148-150 and, with the constitutional requirement for the Senate to have no less than half the numbers of the House, the Senate was increased in size from 64 to 76 (an increase of two Senators per state and the ACT/NT remaining at two Senators apiece).
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
There was a referendum in 1966 to break the constitutional nexus between the House and Senate (the Senate should have roughly half the number of House members) which failed, unfortunately. The theory was there'd be an increase in the number of House of Reps divisions, with about 50,000 electors, with the contemporary 10 senators per state. The referendum failed (I suspect more because the Australian voting public didn't know what they were voting for or against) so Hawke solved the problem of extremely large lower house electorates by increasing the number of senators; the Country Party were all for it as they were the only minor party at the time.

There's a lot to be said for lower house electorates of, about, 50,000 each and 10 senators per state.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
Didn't you go to school with Harold Holt Lindo?

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 4
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Latest news from the Electoral Commission seems to be that old mate from the Australian Sports party has missed out on a seat in the Senate.

Shame really. He could have livened up proceedings in the Senate.


Looks like Old Mate Dropulich from the Sports Party may have made it to the Senate on the latest revision of the results from the West. What is going to happen next is anyone's guess?

They must be loving this debacle in those countries that are regularly criticised for their electoral procedures by the Australian media and officials.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
WA will be going to the polls again for sure.

There is no way this result will be allowed to stand.

It's impossible to say whether the AEC got the count wrong the first time because the second count was done without 1,300+ votes or whatever it was.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Sounds like a Zimbabwe election. Missing votes. Incorrect counts.

Elections cost heaps of money. If there is another one, who's head/s is/are going to roll?

This is unacceptable waste and a performance as good as the Wobs one last night.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Meanwhile there is hell to pay for a Politician wasting $2k of public monies on incorrectly claimed travel allowances.

$2 k rorting allowances is bad. $10 m waste for incompetence is somehow acceptable. Go figure.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Meanwhile there is hell to pay for a Politician wasting $2k of public monies on incorrectly claimed travel allowances.

$2 k rorting allowances is bad. $10 m waste for incompetence is somehow acceptable. Go figure.

They're completely different things. Comparing them in dollar terms is pointless.

I don't think the AEC incompetence in losing votes is acceptable at all. I'd be surprised if some people didn't lose their jobs over it. I don't know anywhere or anyone that has suggested that losing votes is acceptable. it doesn't change the fact that it needs to be rectified.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
We cant accept any taint over an election result: very thin end of a society destroying wedge.
Pay whatever it costs to maintain the reputation of our democracy.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
It's not like the AEC is trying to cover anything up.

It is almost certain that they will be putting in a request to The Court of Disputed Returns in the High Court to have the election recontested.

Holding the WA Senate Election again seems the only fair way to resolve the issue and maintain the reputation of our democracy.

Of course if the results vary significantly from the first time around then there will be more controversy, but there is little else that can be done.
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
The results will vary significantly. For a start plenty of people wont turnout, and secondly everyone is aware of the preference deals this time around and will take that into account when voting (as they should have done the first time).
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The results will vary significantly. For a start plenty of people wont turnout, and secondly everyone is aware of the preference deals this time around and will take that into account when voting (as they should have done the first time).

The number of votes for minor parties is so small anyway, I don't know if the numbers will decrease substantially. Would minor party above the line voters actually be upset by the Australian Sports Party winning a seat and
decide that they should vote for a major party this time around or would they just think that their minor party only needs a small number of extra votes and it might have a chance?

I was referring more to the fact that if the LNP doesn't win three seats they'll be pissed. The ALP will win one and the ALP, Greens and PUP will presumably be fighting it out for the final two spots.

Does the AEC get to fine people twice if they don't turn up for either poll?
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
We cant accept any taint over an election result: very thin end of a society destroying wedge.
Pay whatever it costs to maintain the reputation of our democracy.

Appreciate the need to maintain the integrity of our democracy, but the job of filling the vacancy for Bob Carr has been delegated to the NSW State Parliament, who will (or have) simply rubber stamped the recommendation of the NSW Labour Party. The constitution allows for this rather efficient, practical and cost effective method of resolving a vacancy in the ranks of the Senate.

The problem seems to be that there are a series of vacancies within the ranks of the senators representing WA in the Federal Parliament. Leave the problem to filling those vacancies up to the WA State Parliament.

There should be sufficient guidance as to the general will of the WA people on the basis of the current make up of the existing democratically elected WA State Parliament, the lower house members from WA Federal Seats, and the "vibe" of the initial votes and preferences from the first go at the WA Senate election.

Think outside the box. WA State Parliament to endorse 3 Coalition Spots, 1 ALP Spot, and the last spot to be rotated for two years each between ALP, PUP, and Greens. That is how you save $10 million and while keeping the integrity of the democratic process alive.

Either that or run the NSW Senate vote again to replace the vacancy caused by Mr Carr as well. His "successful" candidacy appears to have been obtained under false pretenses, and with a condition attached - "If the ALP don't win the Government, regardless of whether I an elected by the people to represent them, I won't serve."
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I think the two things are completely different HJ.

The method you have suggested for resolving the WA senate vote without another poll would be just about the most undemocratic thing possible.
 
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