How is this going to play out?

[wamberal]

Climate change is unavoidable so presumably you mean human induced climate change - and then the question is not where does he stand but what is going to be done about it......nothing done by or suggested by either of the major parties will have any effect on the rate of human induced climate change: accordingly this is not a political issue.

Just as the hole in the ozone layer was unavoidable and nothing could be done about it?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I didn't say nothing could be done about it: I said nothing done by or suggested by the major parties (meaning the Australian major parties) will make any difference to it.

 

[fatprop]

I went to the Yes Prime Minister play over the weekend, they touched on the climate change stuff with Sir Humphrey excited about all these new tax & administration opportunities and PM Hacker excited to be able to do "something" with no test that it will work for 50 years. A clear win/win for both the politicians and bureaucrats.

Sir Humphrey ended up as the "Climate Change Czar" as well

 

[wamberal]

I didn't say nothing could be done about it: I said nothing done by or suggested by the major parties (meaning the Australian major parties) will make any difference to it.

Are you a scientist? Scientists identified the "ozone hole" problem, they posited a cause, and they proposed a solution. The solution appears to have worked.


Massive scientific opinion posits that human-induced carbon emissions are causing problems, the effects are measurable, there are ways to combat the effects to a measurable extent, and some governments around the world are taking action to mitigate the effects, including the Chinese (see Malcolm Turnbull for political insight on this).


Do you have children? Do you expect to have grand-children? Are you happy to consign them to the fates?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My point has nothing to do with science - I am not expressing a view one way or the other, in fact for the sake of my point I am assuming that there is (a) a continuing presently existing period of global warming (b) that it is entirely induced by human activity.

NO ACTION TAKEN IN AUSTRALIA, AT THE INSTIGATION OF EITHER MAJOR PARTY, WILL MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE TO THE PROGRESS OF GLOBAL WARMING.

By the way, if you believe in "fate" then my children and grandchildren are already consigned to them.

 

[Bowside]

But gay marriage isn't like climate change or the mining tax. It's a moral issue, not a policy issue. There are no constantly evolving facts and information, it's just a gradual shift in public opinion.

Abbott is religious and obviously this colours his views on the subject. However when the polls on gay marriage reach such a point that the public's view is undeniable then he will respond to the electorate. In my opinion (and his) they are not quite there yet. But they will. Sooner rather than later.

How are climate change and the mining tax not moral issues?

 

[en_force_er]

How are climate change and the mining tax not moral issues?

Depends how you define a moral/policy issue. I personally understand the definition he is using for the sake of his argument.

He is not claiming there is no morality associated with climate change, he is just saying it isn't a purely opinion based argument like same-sex marriage.

You can quantify the NEED for work to be done on climate change but you can only quantify the WANT for work to be done on same-sex marriage.

Understand?

 

[barbarian]

How are climate change and the mining tax not moral issues?

Yeah basically what enforcer said.

I'm not denying a moral dimension to climate change or the mining tax, but both fundamentally come down to dollars and cents, the structure of the tax system etc. Morally you may see the need for both policies, but the actual implementation is far more complex with many different alternatives to pursue.
.

 

[fatprop]

How are climate change and the mining tax not moral issues?

I would deem both of those basically political issues, sure there is always a moral element, but not nearly the same level as say gay marriage or abortion.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yeah basically what enforcer said.

I'm not denying a moral dimension to climate change or the mining tax, but both fundamentally come down to dollars and cents, the structure of the tax system etc. Morally you may see the need for both policies, but the actual implementation is far more complex with many different alternatives to pursue.
.

There is more than a moral dimension to same sex marriage: as a matter of biology a same sex couple cannot have a child that is related to both of them. This gives rise to potential physiological and psychological issue that have nothing to do with morality.

 

[Bowside]

I would deem both of those basically political issues, sure there is always a moral element, but not nearly the same level as say gay marriage or abortion.

I understand the angle baabaa was coming at it from - I think they are moral and political issues as well.

I also think the moral issues associated with them are far more importants than those concerning gay marrage and abortion.

We spend so much times talking about gay marriage but I see it as a massive non-issue. I've never been able to understand people who oppose gay marriage - at the end of the day, unless you are gay, gay marriage doesn't affect you one bit.

 

[en_force_er]

There is more than a moral dimension to same sex marriage: as a matter of biology a same sex couple cannot have a child that is related to both of them. This gives rise to potential physiological and psychological issue that have nothing to do with morality.

Same-sex marriage and "should same-sex couples have kids" are COMPLETELY different issues.

I mean... you'd expect that legally there would have to be some link but as ethical issues it's apples and oranges.

 

[fatprop]

I understand the angle baabaa was coming at it from - I think they are moral and political issues as well.

I also think the moral issues associated with them are far more importants than those concerning gay marrage and abortion.

We spend so much times talking about gay marriage but I see it as a massive non-issue. I've never been able to understand people who oppose gay marriage - at the end of the day, unless you are gay, gay marriage doesn't affect you one bit.

Personally I agree, but I ain't a conservative socially, Abbott is. To him it is a simple issue, the pope says no gay marriage so that is it.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Same-sex marriage and "should same-sex couples have kids" are COMPLETELY different issues.

I mean... you'd expect that legally there would have to be some link but as ethical issues it's apples and oranges.

What happens in the family court when a same sex marriage is dissolved and there are 2 children - each of whom is related to only one spouse? and one spouse or both spouses say well I'm not related to that one so i dont want to see it or raise it or pay for it....etc etc
sure they may be (depending on definitions) "children of the marriage".........
They are by no means completely different issues - not least because the family court deals with all of them.

 

[en_force_er]

What happens in the family court when a same sex marriage is dissolved and there are 2 children - each of whom is related to only one spouse? and one spouse or both spouses say well I'm not related to that one so i dont want to see it or raise it or pay for it....etc etc
sure they may be (depending on definitions) "children of the marriage".........
They are by no means completely different issues - not least because the family court deals with all of them.

I'm not sure if you read where I said that whilst there would be a legal link they are completely different issues.

 

[fatprop]

Howard took most of the legal issues away on gay marriage by changing regulation whilst being the political animal and clarifying the definition under the Marriage Act. So whilst he made the socially conservatives happy, he took away the majority of the road blocks for gay couples. So now they have essentially the same legal rights as de-factos. The only thing marriage gives you legally these days is more easily executed decision rights over a partner in hospital really, something an enduring Power of Attorney can give anyone.

I reckon there will be a compromise to placate the socially conservatives (and there are a lot out there across both parties) and move on.

At the moment the drive is to amend the marriage act (the usual all or nothing approach of the left), but a separate act called say "the civil union act" could give all the needed protections needed and give equal rights under the law and keep conservatives happy.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

isn't necessarily an ethical link.

is a million miles from "completely different issues"

 

[en_force_er]

is a million miles from "completely different issues"

Alright fine, post edited for your approval.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Alright fine, post edited for your approval.

The point about all this that its blurred at the margins - for some people gay marriage is as black and white as global warming and the mining tax are for other - or even the same - people.......

Funny thing is that I haven't seen a word about the original "news" anywhere - no one is going to touch it: and surely we all agree that it one saving grace about australian politics.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

The divorce issues due to biology are a non issue. Adoptive parents don't have any biology & they still can have kids. In any relationship regardless of biology the child would go to the most stable parent with the most support & partners who don't want to suck it up & pay for the child in the divorce should just deal with it like heterosexual couples do. Its universally the same, you go into marriage knowing it could break down, you have children knowing if the relationship breaks down you could still be paying for them.

Psychological research has got support for same-sex couple children & other non-traditional family children as being no better or worse than children from heterosexual families.

Anyhow, really just wanted to say I had no clue Tony's sister was a gay activist. I hope she goes well.

Oh, I would just love to meet & talk to Tony Abbott. I can see it now, he says tell me about yourself, I say I'm a lesbian bastard daughter raised by a single mother & grandparents, from a working class Irish catholic background. I imagine from Tony's beliefs that he would figure I'm actually capable of transforming into a monster like from Aliens with acid blood - if only, that would be awesome.