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ISA Rugby 2016

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outsidein22

Bob McCowan (2)
You sure the Pius kids would be voting to get bashed up every week next year in Div 1?

What's wrong with them playing in a comp where they are competitive?

I don't give two shits about who is a founding member,or full member.

The idea of the association is to provide competition for the Schools.

Competition means competitive teams.

The 2 divisions should ensure every School can find its level.



I can see benefits of both your's and Pilfer80's arguments but the reality is it's a ballsup either way and unless Gregs/Pius dramatically improve their rugby programs I can't really see there been a good solution.

The split round is a logistical nightmare for the Sydney schools splitting between Oxford Falls and Campbelltown, coupled with the fact the 1sts and 2nds or As/Bs teams are playing on the opposite side of Sydney, there is interruptions to usual game day processes like lower grades backing up etc. If it isn't already a big enough challenge for 2nd XV's playing against Pius 1sts at Oxford Falls, it wouldn't be made any easier having some of your players taken down to Campbelltown to sit on the bench. Would hate to imagine how difficult it would be for Stannies and Kinross organising buses to the two different locations. And simply just bringing one or both of Gregs/Pius back into div 1 as a full fixture will result in some thorough feedings, which never bodes well for the health of the respective schools rugby programs.

In regard to the talk about St Pat's possibly playing div 2, it's complete nonsense. St Pats won't be playing div 2 in the near future, and not because they are a full member. Whilst St Pats teams in the younger age groups may cop the odd hiding to a top team, they are always reasonably competitive. While they may not be winning premierships St Pat's are consistently fielding teams across the age groups. Unfortunately, the biggest issue going forward for St Pat's is the changing demographic and focus of the school. Who knows what the future holds in that light but I'm sure there would be people working tirelessly at St Pat's to build the profile of rugby at the school and develop players through the age groups.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
As with the other schoolboy threads, let's not name names of misbehaving schoolboys.

If you feel strongly about the issue, then raise it with the one of the Heads of School, or Master in Charge of Sport for it to be dealt with. They are best placed to deal with the issue. It is their job.

No more comment or allegations regarding the behaviour between KWS & SSC as they will be deleted.

Some people can't read.

Posts HAVE been and will be deleted if they go into specifics about the incident.

Posters who continue to ignore this warning will be banned. SIMPLE.
 

pilfer80

Frank Nicholson (4)
You sure the Pius kids would be voting to get bashed up every week next year in Div 1?
What's wrong with them playing in a comp where they are competitive?
I don't give two shits about who is a founding member,or full member.
The idea of the association is to provide competition for the Schools.
Competition means competitive teams.
The 2 divisions should ensure every School can find its level.


Your point would only be valid if Pius were happy to drop to Div 2.

From all reports Pius were devastated to lose to Greg's (in a tight game) at the beginning of the season, therefore creating a strong impression they were very keen to play against the best of the ISA.

Your stubborn stand on "not giving a shit" about who is a full member is quite 'tunnel-visioned'.

If (and I believe they do) Pius want to play Div 1, Pius should be playing Div 1. They are not far off Greg's 1st XV "rugby" team and I don't think would be too far behind the competition.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
It seems that the current arrangement has had a negative impact on Pius, as their A and B teams are nearly always at different venues, meaning that that have to carry fresh reserves which means that they sometimes are short in the Cs.

Suits Gregs as they usually only have 1 team per age group.
 

Tah123

Herbert Moran (7)
Further to your comment @Quick Hands, same issue when visiting teams play St Gregs/St Pius at home. For example ---> When a visiting team are playing Gregs at Campbelltown they pull up 2nd XV players to sit on the bench which in turn weakens the 2nd XV playing Pius at Oxford Falls. This essentially means St Pius 1st XV play a team somewhere between a 2nd XV and 3rd XV - they become easy pickings for a St Pius 1st XV which are pretty good in their own right (and would have been competitive against any 1st XV IMHO).

How about a promotion and relegation system for the ISA where schools move between DIV 1,2 and 3? You could have a weighted points system and at the end of the season the champion school from Div 2 goes to Div 1, whilst the school who didn't perform so strong in Div 1 moves to Div 2. The weighting could go something like this:

POINTS for a WIN:
1stXV 6
2ndXV 4
16a 3
16b 2
15a 3
15b 2
14a 2
14b 1
13a 2
13b 1

Thoughts anyone?
 

Rugbybloke123

Herbert Moran (7)
When a visiting team are playing Gregs at Campbelltown they pull up 2nd XV players to sit on the bench which in turn weakens the 2nd XV playing Pius at Oxford Falls. This essentially means St Pius 1st XV play a team somewhere between a 2nd XV and 3rd XV


Could the Pius/Gregs switch between pius or gregs home fields on alternate home weeks so that the visiting schools are together and don't have to worry about the 2nds losing their better players.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Good suggestion. What about trialling it next year with home fixtures at one school, one round each at least? That'd give both St Greg's and Pius a bloody good day for a home game.

Cue the grizzling about travelling halfway across Sydney for a home fixture.
 

Rugbybloke123

Herbert Moran (7)
Good suggestion. What about trialling it next year with home fixtures at one school, one round each at least? That'd give both St Greg's and Pius a bloody good day for a home game.

Cue the grizzling about travelling halfway across Sydney for a home fixture.


Everyone else travels halfway across Sydney for them so why can't they !!!
 

Outsideback21

Bob McCowan (2)
Have heard from some friends that All Saints and Stannies will be playing a post-season exhibition game after the conclusion of the trial exams for both two school. Will be interesting to see how all saints fares, they've been undefeated at home this season in div 2 and im sure they'll be up to the challenge from the cross town school.
 

RugbyWiseman76

Frank Row (1)
Have heard from some friends that All Saints and Stannies will be playing a post-season exhibition game after the conclusion of the trial exams for both two school. Will be interesting to see how all saints fares, they've been undefeated at home this season in div 2 and im sure they'll be up to the challenge from the cross town school.

Have heard this also from some All Saints parents the other week, not sure if true or not but would be great for ISA rugby in general and All Saints. When Div 2 teams play Div 1 it highlights the differences between the two and gives them goals to strive for. Am not a member of either school's community but will be watching the outcome of the match with interest if it indeed does take place, ️like many parents have said it would.
 

RugbyWiseman76

Frank Row (1)
Have heard this also from some All Saints parents the other week, not sure if true or not but would be great for ISA rugby in general and All Saints. When Div 2 teams play Div 1 it highlights the differences between the two and gives them goals to strive for. Am not a member of either school's community but will be watching the outcome of the match with interest if it indeed does take place, ️like many parents have said it would.

An update on the matter. Was at a local haunt called Webb & Co where I encountered some all saints parents who confirmed the news of the fixture. It appears the coaching staff at all saints has emailed Stannies asking for a match between the two schools teams, as they were extremely pleased with a 16s game held between the two last year and are keen to replicate its success in the opens. Very exciting news to see the talk eventuate in a match, can't wait to hear more.
 

Not in straight

Vay Wilson (31)
An update on the matter. Was at a local haunt called Webb & Co where I encountered some all saints parents who confirmed the news of the fixture. It appears the coaching staff at all saints has emailed Stannies asking for a match between the two schools teams, as they were extremely pleased with a 16s game held between the two last year and are keen to replicate its success in the opens. Very exciting news to see the talk eventuate in a match, can't wait to hear more.

Just need Scots to step up and it would be the old days
 

On the ball

Frank Row (1)
Further to your comment @Quick Hands, same issue when visiting teams play St Gregs/St Pius at home. For example ---> When a visiting team are playing Gregs at Campbelltown they pull up 2nd XV players to sit on the bench which in turn weakens the 2nd XV playing Pius at Oxford Falls. This essentially means St Pius 1st XV play a team somewhere between a 2nd XV and 3rd XV - they become easy pickings for a St Pius 1st XV which are pretty good in their own right (and would have been competitive against any 1st XV IMHO).

How about a promotion and relegation system for the ISA where schools move between DIV 1,2 and 3? You could have a weighted points system and at the end of the season the champion school from Div 2 goes to Div 1, whilst the school who didn't perform so strong in Div 1 moves to Div 2. The weighting could go something like this:

POINTS for a WIN:
1stXV 6
2ndXV 4
16a 3
16b 2
15a 3
15b 2
14a 2
14b 1
13a 2
13b 1

Thoughts anyone?


The Division allocations in ISA are simple. Schools in Div 2 only field one team per age group. These schools are generally limited by their smaller enrolments. There is no 2nd XV comp and several schools have insufficient players to field teams in one of the U13-U16 age groups therefore speculation that any Div 1 schools are in line for relegation is untrue unless the school plans on fielding one team per age when dropping to Div 2. St Pats are definitely safe in Div 1.

The decline in participants in many schools rugby programs has resulted in no school moving up to Div 1 from Div 2 in more than 10 years. St Augustine's and St Greg's went straight into Div 1 when they joined ISA based on their teams being too strong for Div 2 and their ability to field B teams. Chevalier and then St Andrew's dropped down from Div 1 to Div 2, leaving seven schools in Div 1.
Whilst less competition games provided opportunities for trial matches v CAS and GPS schools, Div 1 schools were left with a short season consisting of 7 competition rounds (only 6 games) where one loss often cost teams the premiership. Issues existed around home advantage, refs etc when schools only played opponents at home every second year. With the potential for washouts and byes, younger teams and lower grades often had less than 6 comp games which is difficult to sell to players and parents as a "season of rugby". In the past the short season length has been a significant issue in players choosing to play club rugby or league over schoolboy rugby which has meant that the best talent has not always played for their schools or in ISA rep teams. Some schools supplement their 1st XV season with Waratah Shield participation to increase the number of competitive games, however, the demise of that competition is discussion for another thread.

The change in structure of the CAS and GPS to home and away comps meant that there was no opposition to play from other associations in early Term 2 and ISA needed to extend their competition season. A home and away season was not possible with 7 schools as it includes a bye round and would go for 16 weeks which is longer than the 12 weeks allocated for the winter season. The combining of Pius and Greg's into one line facilitated the 6 line home and away season where schools received 5 home and 5 away games. This involved a huge amount of goodwill from both St Pius and St Greg's as only one school has the opportunity to play 1st XV and A games.

Out of the 10 rounds in this season's competition Kinross, Stannies, Pats, Oakhill and Augies had ONE round (away v Gregs/Pius) where they needed to send squads to different venues requiring them to send teams with reserves. The situation isn't ideal for the away team but as it only occurs once in 10 rounds it is fairer than the suggestion that Pius or Greg's should alternate hosting duties which would result in both schools playing either 7 or 8 games out of 10 away and possibly hosting only 2 rounds.

The 2016 format, whilst not perfect, resulted in a better season for players in the ISA Div 1 comp through better grading (safer for participants and more competitive) and extending the comp season by 4 games. Some comps, including 1st XV were not decided until the last round. Pius 1sts (a strong team by Pius standards) were not unbeaten in the 2nds comp however, the best indicator of the success of the format is if there is a reduction in mismatches in the lower grades which appears to be significantly less than previous years (certainly for St Greg's and Pius). Should the 2016 format be retained in the future it should assist schools to attract and maintain players to play rugby in the ISA comp simply through a greater number of competitive games that are better matched.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
Well written, Otb. We should all understand the problems the ISA schools have a bit better after your illuminating post.

Asking schools to co-ordinate fixtures so's opponents play a "combined" school requires a lot of goodwill on all sides. It looks like commonsense has broken out here to ensure both St Greg's and SPX get games for their boys where they aren't out of their depth with the resultant floggings. There's no greater disincentive to enjoying sport than turning up every Saturday to cop a 50/100 point flogging.

St Greg's combined with Grammar in the GPS comp some 10 years ago to put on a combined fixture in the GPS comp. Dunno why it didn't last.
 

Tah123

Herbert Moran (7)
On The Ball - great post - excellent summary of the history and the current situation. Fair to say that what we have today is a pretty good outcome and my proposal is not all that practical.

Anyway, great season in 2016. Whilst the champs (Auggies) were not a surprise, the comp was a lot more even. This is illustrated by KWS beating Auggies twice but going down to St Gregs last weekend. So, in theory, Gregs are capable of beating Auggies.

On to 2017 !!!

@HJ - any chance of your annual summary through the ages and grades? Have the boys from Brookvale dominated once again?
 
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