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Jobs (not Steve)

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Rob42

Rob42

John Solomon (38)
One would hope we are the smart country Boyo. But all of these companies you've listed are "old manufacturing", not "smart jobs". Fewer headlines in lots of smaller companies employing a few people here and there.
 
Runner

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
The numbers in manufacturing lost are a small percentage of jobs in the economy. Yes they are particularly bad in Geelong but going off half cocked will not solve the problem. Even Paul Howes is starting to realize that blaming the Libs is poor tactic.

The kids in school today will work in jobs that we have not heard off and for companies that don't exist yet.
 
Scoey

Scoey

Tony Shaw (54)
Runner said:
The numbers in manufacturing lost are a small percentage of jobs in the economy. Yes they are particularly bad in Geelong but going off half cocked will not solve the problem. Even Paul Howes is starting to realize that blaming the Libs is poor tactic.

The kids in school today will work in jobs that we have not heard off and for companies that don't exist yet.
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I hate it when people take a purely numbers view on wholesale job losses. Tell one of the 10's of thousands of folk who have lost their jobs that they are a small percentage.

The flow on social effects on both individual families and whole communities can last decades.

But so long as the ones calling the shots don't have to worry where their next pay check is coming from, it's all good.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
barbarian

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Scoey said:
I hate it when people take a purely numbers view on wholesale job losses. Tell one of the 10's of thousands of folk who have lost their jobs that they are a small percentage.

The flow on social effects on both individual families and whole communities can last decades.

But so long as the ones calling the shots don't have to worry where their next pay check is coming from, it's all good.
Click to expand...

There is no shortage of sympathy from everyone, including the pollies, but what are they supposed to do? Sink millions of dollars in to prop these industries up for another year or two? Sure, but that doesn't solve the core problem and that cash could be used for any number of things (hospitals, roads etc).

It's a tough issue, and ultimately one the Government can't really win on. But I think they made the right call.
.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
It may seem harsh to say this, but can't say it's the smart country when so many people continue to make their careers in industries that are replaceable overseas for much lower costs. Some people have been in the industry for decades however if we were only phasing these industries out as people retired it wouldn't be an issue. The quantity of people in my generation in these industries is the concern.

Ross Greenwood on today just made some good comments about this. Australia's average wage is far too high considering the industries we have. Some of these obsolete industries have had wage increases far in excess of the cost of living and have simply priced themselves out of being competitive.

I made this argument when talking about it to my dad, a staunch labour supporter and construction union member. Nobody wants to get paid less to do these jobs, nobody is going to pay more for these goods. Who has recently purchased anything like a car because it is Australian made, even though it costs more?

When I left school I started out as a labourer in construction. I chose to take a pay hit to do an apprenticeship, then studied at night to move into project management and have since moved into a niche consultancy, which has high demand and limited supply in the industry to protect my employment opportunities and maximise my career earnings. Haven't got a lot of sympathy for somebody who thinks it's the government's job to ensure they always have a job with doing much to bring something to the table.
 
Braveheart81

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Jobs are always going to come and go as old industries are replaced by new ones.

If you're looking at the Alcoa situation, you have a plant that has been operating much the same way for 50 years. Lack of reinvestment into the business to improve efficiences meant that eventually it ceased to be a going concern.

The whole union bashing thing is a bit of a waste of time. It's not like people in manufacturing jobs are earning big money. They're still fairly lowly paid workers in our modern economy and wage increases over time have been essential for people to keep pace with the cost of living and stave off competition from other employers.

Australia needs to lay the foundations for the future growth industries in this country and many people certainly think that many of these jobs will lie in technology or renewable energy. Sadly, for ideological reasons or otherwise, these areas are being curtailed rather than invested in.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
BH,

I personally am not anti-union, anti-wage growth. For my industry, construction for example, you need to be able to make a good living if you want to attract quality tradesmen and workers, otherwise, why would they work in this fluffybunny of an industry? You'd have to imagine it would cost more when you have a lower quality work force too.

But at the same time employers need to be able to get value for money otherwise that cost is only going to be passed on to the consumer. Employers aren't going to subsidise inefficiency. The rising wage cost against cost of living in construction has to be a significant factor in the rise in property prices, in addition to the increasing urban density.

As I mentioned about Ross Greenwood's comments, it's that these low skilled wage increases were increasing too far beyond CPI. When it's already hard to compete against off-shore manufacturing, if the gap between the cost of manufacture and the price you can charge is shrinking, companies have little option.

Some of these are a beat up though. Cootes for example, wasn't it reported that their contracts will be picked up by others anyway?
 
Gnostic

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
For those interested in the history of all these recent job losses and their genesis. A few Podcasts for you.

Ross Garnaut
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/local/brisbane/conversations/201312/r1211085_15772364.mp3

George Megalogenus Pt1
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/local/brisbane/conversations/201202/r898884_9107994.mp3

Part 2
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/local/brisbane/conversations/201202/r899790_9126866.mp3


A key point that many in Government have failed to understand is the social impacts of the shift from the "manufacturing & agriculture" based economy to the "services" based economy.
* We have a falling rate of male graduation from tertiary education. So ask a question what are all these young under-educated men going to be doing? What are the social impacts of these young men not having many prospects of employment away from the menial?
* For the "clever" country all the current research indicates that our children are falling further and further behind in terms of educational outcomes. How will that equate with the "service" economy?
* Given the points above the "services" that Australia will sell are lower level services due to lack of skills/education we are staring down the barrel of a dramatic decline in living standards. What is the social impact of that?
 
Runner

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
Gnostic said:
For those interested in the history of all these recent job losses and their genesis. A few Podcasts for you.

Ross Garnaut
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/local/brisbane/conversations/201312/r1211085_15772364.mp3

George Megalogenus Pt1
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/local/brisbane/conversations/201202/r898884_9107994.mp3

Part 2
http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/local/brisbane/conversations/201202/r899790_9126866.mp3


A key point that many in Government have failed to understand is the social impacts of the shift from the "manufacturing & agriculture" based economy to the "services" based economy.
* We have a falling rate of male graduation from tertiary education. So ask a question what are all these young under-educated men going to be doing? What are the social impacts of these young men not having many prospects of employment away from the menial?
* For the "clever" country all the current research indicates that our children are falling further and further behind in terms of educational outcomes. How will that equate with the "service" economy?
* Given the points above the "services" that Australia will sell are lower level services due to lack of skills/education we are staring down the barrel of a dramatic decline in living standards. What is the social impact of that?
Click to expand...

It is easy to see that changing is happening but not possible to plan for all things. D day had stuff ups as well that through luck saw the allies get away with it. So no government, not even mother Russia, could adequately prepare.

Best solution is to have the educated workforce who are adaptable to change. Here we need a good system and unions that are in the 20th century not the 18th.

People are chooseing alternatives to university as that style of education is not the magic bullet it is made out to be.
Universities are becoming service providers just look at the composition of the student body and how many are from overseas paying to come here.

There are estimates that some thousands of overseas students are even in our high schools.

Qantas is an example of a company that is trying to change. Yes jobs will go by 2017 but many are due to changes in technology that requires less service time on jets, our cost structures such as our Qantas workforce cost 16% more thatn Virgin. Labour costs in Qantas are twice that of Singapore airlines or Emirates.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Runner said:
Qantas is an example of a company that is trying to change. Yes jobs will go by 2017 but many are due to changes in technology that requires less service time on jets, our cost structures such as our Qantas workforce cost 16% more thatn Virgin. Labour costs in Qantas are twice that of Singapore airlines or Emirates.
Click to expand...

Those are quite important points Runner. Everybody wants to shop around for the cheapest deal, which is why Qantas is struggling. There seems to be an expectation that these companies will run at higher costs than overseas alternatives, yet provide a competitive price.

I generally fly Virgin, because its cheaper and comparable service.
 
Gnostic

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Runner said:
It is easy to see that changing is happening but not possible to plan for all things. D day had stuff ups as well that through luck saw the allies get away with it. So no government, not even mother Russia, could adequately prepare.

Best solution is to have the educated workforce who are adaptable to change. Here we need a good system and unions that are in the 20th century not the 18th.

People are chooseing alternatives to university as that style of education is not the magic bullet it is made out to be.
Universities are becoming service providers just look at the composition of the student body and how many are from overseas paying to come here.

There are estimates that some thousands of overseas students are even in our high schools.

Qantas is an example of a company that is trying to change. Yes jobs will go by 2017 but many are due to changes in technology that requires less service time on jets, our cost structures such as our Qantas workforce cost 16% more thatn Virgin. Labour costs in Qantas are twice that of Singapore airlines or Emirates.
Click to expand...


Runner you say nothing new. You have quoted my post but didn't address anything in it.

The manufacturing industry was dead in Australia the day Whitlam dropped tariffs and protectionism. I am not arguing the merits for or against. I really no longer care, I am more concerned about the so called transition and the genuine lack of prospects for so many in our society. Not everyone has the skills or the ability to learn the skills for so many of the service jobs in the new economy.

This ties in with a growing divide between different segments of the community and geographical areas.

In the late 1970s US President Jimmy Carter was alarmed not by the changing economy, but by the growing disparity in the US and what he termed the greatest threat to US democracy - despondency, loss of faith in institutions and a general feeling that the country was in decline. That hasn't changed and it is the case in most western countries when you have a look at the literature on the subject, and a superficial look at Australian institutions and politics show the same loss of faith, respect and a general apathy and even hostility to anyone involved.

My questions are not directly about job creation in the new economy, they concern the egalitarian nature that Australia has always had, up to now. I see that being lost more and more and I wonder what the future holds for those without the skills or intellect to fit the "new" jobs. I see that such a path leads to significant civil unrest as has been shown many times in the past.
 
Beefcake

Beefcake

Bill Watson (15)
Regarding the expanse between the skilled and industry and how innovation attempts to drive change and simultaneously plug this gap - Personally, i think the innovation should be targeted at framework/policy.

Too much skills with-out industry - Cuba
Too much industry with-out skills - US
Somewhat balance of skills and industry - Nordic countries - Norway/Swiss
(obvious simplification)

We are a smart country with poor politics that lack any 'balls' to put Australia first (Menzies) - seems when Libs stated 'we're open for business' they were preparing us for a jolly ol' rearending.

Now its fair to say that big business has too much say in this sense and that selling Australia overseas is much the mantra that aligns with globalisation, the dominance of MNCs and marketisation - and this benefits only the dominant market players.

How do people at the bottom ensure they stay relevant with the top-brass - been looking at participatory democracy which essentially seeks to broadens the role of community in decision-making especially the design of policies from their inception to their objectives. Being part of policy making ensure at least that community has a say, direct role and ownership of decisions.

And should policies take an Australia first role - assets and resources are portioned with greater diligence with a markedly increased sense of accountability because of the involvement of the community at the site of decision making. And therefore profits are distributed between business and community in a more equitable way.
 
Ruggo

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
barbarian said:
There is no shortage of sympathy from everyone, including the pollies, but what are they supposed to do? Sink millions of dollars in to prop these industries up for another year or two? Sure, but that doesn't solve the core problem and that cash could be used for any number of things (hospitals, roads, budget surpluses and over the top paid parental schemes. etc).

It's a tough issue, and ultimately one the Government can't really win on. But I think they made the right call.
.
Click to expand...

I don't mind the jobs going if it is clearly articulated and demonstrated where the replacement jobs are coming from. Sympathy doesn't pay the bills and feed the family. The Government is showing no social policy to see us through any transition. Worst I believe is the climate denial within the government because the green industries are the best chance of transition as were the silicon valley industries were 25/30 years ago.
 
Runner

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
Lets have a simple approach.

5000 car workers divided into $100 million dollar package as a direct payment. Cut out the public servants who will take 50% or more in administration. So give each worker $ $$$$$
 
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