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John Papahatzis

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H

high tower

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Barbarian i think you will find that GPS never played ISA and have not done so recently. The old they beat CAS who beat ISA doesnt count for much as each games a new one.
History shows that last time the twos met in the final at nationals the best players get picked not the best team. St Augustines were undefeated last year and so far this year against all comers, the waratah shield is open to all school and Kings and Newington could both enter. Last year their ISA reps played 5 games including two for school (while the GPS boys played 2 against CAS and CHS) the only game they lost was the 5th game in about 9 days against CAS at Knox.
I personally have never met the guy but have watched the school play over the last few years, not sure why he went with the guys he chose this year but it sure makes a change to hear the bleating coming from GPS and CAS supporters about how we was robbed.
As was pointed out in the Aust schools thread NSW got more reps than QLD, who has a better reason to complain?
Further GPS dominated selections last year and the year before and NSW 1 lost both years, nothing really has changed, we still lost!
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Putting aside all of that for a minute, don't you see ANYTHING wrong with the fact that Augustines had no less than 5 players in the starting xv (the most from one school for quite some time) of NSW while the whole of GPS only had 3? With the coach and sole selector also from Augustines? If the team had swept through undefeated and Augustines was well represented in the Aus sides no-one would be complaining. But the fact is the results at the Championship and subsequent selections have proven the policy to be flawed. He went for it, and it didnt come off. So the guy deserves a rocket. Simple as that.
 

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David Codey (61)
We can nearly wrap up this thread with some thoughts and prayers for the CAS and GPS 1st , 2nd and 3rd players who in their own right are standouts for their respective school 1st XV's who have had their rugby careers stalled by the self empowered Pappa and Kipp combo.

They were not self empowered they were appointed by those with the authority to do so
I believe some selections were incorrect.
EVERY YEAR IN ANY LEVEL IN ANY CODE, people NEVER agree with all the selections.
EVERY YEAR the GPS kids get the rub of the green, in many cases they are flattered by those around them. There is no doubt they are better coached and better prepared than many they compete with for rep spots, that does not make them better players.But in the past they get picked over similiarly performed kids without the benefits of the GPS system.
If you are saying GPS 3rds kids have been hampered then it is by the GPS selectors who overlooked them.
Look at the number of GPS & CAS "stars"who got Blue jumpers that can't make 1st grade colts after they leave school, who do we blame for that?
The cream always rises to the top, the ones with real ability don't need CV's.
bag the guy, bag the selectors for CS who also overlooked them, but thought & prayers???????
 
H

high tower

Guest
When you say the whole of GPS its like your a seperate universe.
GPS - kings, newington,view,scots,shore and joeys.
its 6 schools that have good rugby programs and brilliant connections, all the connections and all the years of looking after each other, might have bit them on the ........
I dont think it was right, but welcome to everyone elses world forever in the past with regard to getting selected.
it was said by the father of two super 14 players that you go CHS or GPS or forget playing Aust schoolboys rugby.
Hopefully that is slowly changing.
 

Spewn

Alex Ross (28)
The NSW 1s did have some curious features. St Augustines dominated NSW 1s and yet Kings dominates Oz schoolboys. What does that prove?

I note how you exclude Grammar and High as GPS schools. I think some would complain about their exclusion just like you complain about ISA annual exclusion.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
I dont think it was right, but welcome to everyone elses world forever in the past with regard to getting selected.
it was said by the father of two super 14 players that you go CHS or GPS or forget playing Aust schoolboys rugby.
Hopefully that is slowly changing.

Get off your high horse for just a second and stop making this out to be a major social injustice. You are simply talking out your arse. The way to improve CHS and ISA representation is to appoint coaches who favor their own school? Please. GPS dominance of NSW rep teams ended years ago, the only reason I called for their selection is that they dominated the trials. Is that so unfair?

I would love to see more ISA players in NSW and Australian teams. But appointing affiliated coaches with clear bias is not the answer. Nor is the victim mentality seen by some on this board. I think that is fairly logical, but I am just an ex GPS boy who only looks after his mates. Apparently.
 
R

Ron

Guest
Simple fact of the matter was gps sides 1,2 and 3 were clearly dominant in there performances all racking up big scores with very limited training and combinations and were under represented at the NSW level. However in saying that it was good to see Luani, walters, melrose, reid, wells all in the 2's and even 3's gps sides make the next level and even AUS after that..
St Augustines are regarded as a good team these days..but on what basis? Because they beat joeys i assume? joeys 1st trial, SAC 6th game after NZ tour. 35-22 scoreline. One would suggest that is not a very flattering scoreline given the circumstances... Papahatis should without a doubt be given the sack from his NSW gig and the myth about St Augustines being a 'rugby powerhouse' should be extinguished immediatly. They will continue to beat joeys most years given the nature of differing preparations and until they actually beat some other noteworthy GPS schools on even playing grounds i will not accept them as a 'powerhouse'!
 
R

Ron

Guest
indeed it is. the serve is going towards SAC and the NSW selections.
 

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David Codey (61)
Simple fact of the matter was gps sides 1,2 and 3 were clearly dominant in there performances all racking up big scores with very limited training and combinations and were under represented at the NSW level. However in saying that it was good to see Luani, walters, melrose, reid, wells all in the 2's and even 3's gps sides make the next level and even AUS after that..
St Augustines are regarded as a good team these days..but on what basis? Because they beat joeys i assume? joeys 1st trial, SAC 6th game after NZ tour. 35-22 scoreline. One would suggest that is not a very flattering scoreline given the circumstances... Papahatis should without a doubt be given the sack from his NSW gig and the myth about St Augustines being a 'rugby powerhouse' should be extinguished immediatly. They will continue to beat joeys most years given the nature of differing preparations and until they actually beat some other noteworthy GPS schools on even playing grounds i will not accept them as a 'powerhouse'!

i agree that you can't pick 5 from your own school and get away without heavy criticism unless you dominate the carnival. i don't think anyone disputes that. it is the sense of entitlement from GPS parents/supporters that irks.
I thought the Kings pack were unlucky not be in the 1's, but it was to their advantage that they stayed together. The 3 augs backs all deserved to be starters in 1 of the sides, the contention was should they be kept together & if so, in which team.despite the 5/8 not being picked i still rate him above the 2's 5/8 that was picked. the 13 made schoolboys, the 12 was disappointing but plays a significantly different game to the crash balling Apo.
When talking about the strength of schoolboy teams comps, GPS being a powerhouse comp is a myth.
If you saw the joeys/ augs game you would realise that the score did not reflect the game,it looked like it was going to be a 50 point game until the ref stepped in to even things up,and the Augs players relaxed.
Kings are undoubtedly a very good side but who will they play in their comp this year? Shore,Joeys, Scots..... hardly a vintage crop.but then they do also play Grammar don't they?
 
R

Ron

Guest
I agree with you on the selection front however not on the strenght of isa verses gps.. I guess its all hypothetical and no one will ever know.
 
H

high tower

Guest
I think Papa might like this thread to go away, but the suggestion that his standing as a coach has being hurt is only in the eyes of sum.
One of his jobs is get players into the next level of representation, at school level he got a large section of a strong team into the ISA team, he then got a large section of a strong ISA team into the State team, and then a large section of the state team into the national teams. Plenty of criticism, notably from GPS and CAS supporters.
I think you will find his satisfied the people who employ him, the ISA and State jobs are unlikely to be rewarded financially, and his past record as a schoolboy coach is still there for all to see.
The NSW ones were not significantly better last year and i didnt hear anyone screaming for his head then. The fact that GPS, CAS, CHS and ISA selectors have horse traded at the selection table to look after there boys in the past is difficult to dispute. Whats clear is the balance was skewed to ISA this year, was it fair ? I keep beating the drum it has never been in their favour before and it was about time they got the rub of the green as someone else put it earlier.
They have been beating down the door over the last three to four years and plenty have dealt with the politics of schools rugby, while a few have got the rewards.
On the point about relative strength of schools I am certain as I have put before that St Augustines would take the opportunity to play any school(preferably in the waratah sheild with NSW rugby appointed referees) from any association, history -past and recent shows that isnt going to happen as the other schools have other priorities.
Finally rep selectors generally seem to pick the best players rather than teams. I think you will find many ISA watchers who will tell you that St Augustines has a bunch of gun players who form the nucleus of a strong team.
 

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David Codey (61)
don't get me wrong, i am not suggesting ISA is a strong comp,merely that GPS is not nearly as strong as it is promoted by some,topic for a different thread tho.....
 

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David Codey (61)
Hightower, agree with most of your thread apart from last years team.......they were woeful, the backline was atrocious & they all played for themselves. perhaps that had some bearing on picking combinations for the backs this year.
 
H

high tower

Guest
I like to watch, your probably right.
I didnt see this years team play, but by the sounds of it some( one or two) of them struggled with getting seen and doing their best for the team.
Much like last year in some sense perhaps?
 

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David Codey (61)
To a degree, the 1's did not get a lot of quality ball,as opposed to the 2's. their pack worked great as a unit & their 9 gave the 10 great service, he was way wider & deeper than any other 10 in the tournament as a result the 2's backs had many more opportunities.
 
C

catchpole

Guest
Ron, Conan, Iltw & Spewn,

This is an interesting topic.

Remember on circa 16 May 2005 Pat Langtry attempted an ambush of Joeys by St Edmunds College at Hunters Hill relatively early in that season. That epic game is well documented in an article by Paul Sheehan in the SMH dated 23 May 2005 entitled "Boys lesson in defeat.....”

The result St Joseph's College Hunters Hill 46 def. St. Edmunds College 0

Admittedly Joeys side that year was exceptional but the St. Edmunds side was also undefeated in the 2004 season and in 2005 games leading up to the clash with Joeys.

John Papahatzis appears to be, a wily general and coach, obviously a clever self-publicist and a highly political animal. In 2009 & 2010 he has chosen for St. Augustine’s to play Joeys very early in the GPS season after his team had played several trial games, including a tour of NZ. Obviously he is a student of Sun Tzu and the Art of War in that he chooses the time and place (in the season) of his major battles. He has come away with a win on both occasions admittedly against Joeys teams that are under prepared and suffering the from the evolution occurring at Hunters Hill as SJC transitions from a 100% Boarding school to Boarder/Day Boy parity.

I don’t see this thread as either a personal attack on John Papahatzis or a commentary on the relative superiority of the GPS, CAS, CHS, ISA etc systems. To me its more about the policies adopted by NSW Schools in the 2010 representative season and the results those policies achieved at the National Championships last week. However a superficial analysis of the comparative strengths and weaknesses of the systems is worth considering.

Most schools fortunes in the GPS Rugby competition fluctuate on a seasonal basis. Taking King’s as an example, they have shared the GPS Championship with Riverview in 2008/09. Prior to that their last championship win was 2002. In the intervening years their best results was probably 3rd or 4th. Representation by King’s players in NSW Schools and Australian Schools teams in those years was probably an accurate reflection of their standing in the GPS competition. The talent in all of the GPS and CAS schools fluctuates yearly, although the quality of the coaching and overall Rugby programs remains constantly high and improving each year.

In my opinion, St. Edmunds and St. Augustine’s success in their respective competition lies in the fact that Papahatzis or Langtry introduced a professional schoolboy Rugby program (including scholarships and aggressive recruiting) to a relatively new private school that plays against a wide range of private and public schools with lesser funding and school community (parental) support. Of course the obvious exception to this case is the new model of specialist (athletics selective) sports high schools. It is almost a case of the professionals taking on the amateurs. The CHS Rugby program is probably the most underfunded and one where playing sport is now most likely optional. Finding diamonds in a low yield and under funded mine is against the odds!
Former great CHS schools such as Epping, Fort Street, North Sydney etc most likely struggle or fail to field a 1st XV in this era.

The success of St Edmunds in the ACT and Waratah Shield competitions became self-fulfilling as new and talented players wanted to play for Eddies. It appears to me that the same phenomenon is occurring at St. Augustine’s. The fact that their talent pool does not yet stretch to the 2nd XV is an indictment of the aggressive recruitment policy as it is a comment on the relative size of the school compared to a Riverview for example. Similarly the geographic location of the school will see a considerable talent loss to Rugby League.

Most GPS and CAS schools have a secondary school population of 1,200 – 1,600. The powerful Rugby Schools in those competitions can field 8-10 Open Rugby teams and 6 Age Rugby Teams for years 7-10 (24 teams) each week of the season. The last time CHS achieved a significant selection count in representative schoolboy teams was probably just after the Wallabies wins in the 1991 and 1999 Rugby World Cups when enrolments in Village Rugby Clubs spiked and player numbers in State High Schools probably enjoyed a corresponding peak.

The CHS system talent pool is further depleted by the geographical loyalty to competing codes such as Rugby League, Soccer and Rules. This is also happening at GPS and CAS Schools.

Despite what they say: “Size does count”

The production of quality teams and players by the GPS and CAS becomes a simple equation of funding, numbers and probability, refined over 100 Years.
Smaller schools, and systems where playing sport is optional will continue to struggle or slip further backwards against systems where playing sport is compulsory and Rugby is actively promoted.

I am not a supporter of the 2010 Papahatzis experiment nor am I a one-eyed GPS or CAS snob. I saw most of the games from which the NSW Schools sides were selected and clearly Papahatzis was operating with a different agenda.

Correction of inequitable and competing rugby systems by biased selections is not a solution and only does our game more harm that good.

Some have suggested that Papahatzis was attempting to instigate or promote a different style of rugby or game plan. The Australian Schools Rugby selectors saw the style, game plan and results quite differently as reflected in the documented Australian Schools Rugby teams.

It has taken Papahatzis years to build his reputation and influence. He may regret his 2010 experiment.
 

Torn Hammy

Johnnie Wallace (23)
15 minutes into the CAS vs ISA game the much celebrated ISA backs looked stunned. The yipees and yahoos had stopped as they realised that the CAS 9, 10, 12, 13 and 15 were tough aggressive and skillful footballers. By fulltime the CAS backs who had only 3 games together had outplayed their ISA opponents most of who had been together for 2 years (with a N.Z. tour thrown in?) .

That's right, 3 games together this year. That is when Project Papahatzis failed and should have stopped.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
You are warned catchpole because you may be banned. We can't have interesting, well balanced views on a controversial subject connected with schools rugby. I've never heard of such a thing on a rugby forum. Shame on you.

On a more serious note you hit several nails on the head.

Incidentally I was at that Joeys v. St Eddies game Hunters Hill and sitting next to a couple of Eddies parents who were still bubbling along arguing a bit with each other as to exactly how long it had been since Eddies had been beaten, when Joeys scored the first of many tries. Earlier I had talked about Kurtley Beale and his mates and how well they played the year before and I got a couple of kindly smiles, more to each other maybe about the old bloke who was talking to them. Was he in for a shock?

They were gobsmacked about the score and the men against boys dominance that they had been used to coming from their lads. They were certainly bigger than the Joeys boys but they couldn't play with the pace of the Joeys game.

At the end of the game I said something polite about their boys having an off day but they hardly heard me; what had happened hadn't sunk in yet and it didn't compute.

Nice folks though.
 
C

catchpole

Guest
LG,

I wish I had been at that memorable game for more reasons than just the result.

Just trying to keep some perspective on the spirited debate!
 
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