Junior rugby based on weight classes

[I like to watch]

But isn't the whole point of junior rugby - and I'm sure this has been reported as one of the biggest reasons kids play any sport, let alone rugby - is to play with their friends?

So unfortunately the bigger dude no longer gets to play with his mates? He has to go up a level?

And this is from someone, as a few on here are aware of, has boys who are generally close to the smallest on the field.

One isn't fantastic in contact (but we focus on it in trying to improve technique and attitude) and one who just bloody well loves getting in there and loves to challenge of taking on the bigger guy.

Once again the solution, and it's a lot harder than just saying it, comes down to better coaching of our kids. Particularly at the tackle.

The whole volunteer as Jnr coaches thing is obviously the biggest hurdle here. Coaches at this level are generally just the guys willing to put their hands up. Not always the best equipped not best supported.


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I thought it was a great thing that my kids played at a club where they knew very few before registering.
My eldest is still best mates with a few that he met as a 10yo.
That's one of the great value adds of Rugby IMO.

Your kids are obviously not big enough to have been lined up by someone literally twice their body weight with clear intent to hurt them.
My eldest literally picked his tooth out of mouth guard when he was 14, when the Behemoth he was playing couldn't get low enough to to tackle him legally ( with force).
Another was thought to have suffered compartment syndrome ( crush injury) when a giant deliberately landed on him (to hurt & intimidate him) at a similar age.
Another of my sons quit the game, due to constantly being flogged in physical mismatches.
Both my brothers kids quit contact sport due to mismatches, and these were athletic kids that were very competive.
A local Rugby club has an o/s trip for their 14's to entice them to hang around,which is hugely effective.This Year they couldn't field a 15's side.
Maybe,the demographics are different in your area,and you don't experience it.
But it's a real thing, that is affecting participation numbers.

 

[The torpedo]

I thought it was a great thing that my kids played at a club where they knew very few before registering.
My eldest is still best mates with a few that he met as a 10yo.
That's one of the great value adds of Rugby IMO.

Your kids are obviously not big enough to have been lined up by someone literally twice their body weight with clear intent to hurt them.
My eldest literally picked his tooth out of mouth guard when he was 14, when the Behemoth he was playing couldn't get low enough to to tackle him legally ( with force).
Another was thought to have suffered compartment syndrome ( crush injury) when a giant deliberately landed on him (to hurt & intimidate him) at a similar age.
Another of my sons quit the game, due to constantly being flogged in physical mismatches.
Both my brothers kids quit contact sport due to mismatches, and these were athletic kids that were very competive.
A local Rugby club has an o/s trip for their 14's to entice them to hang around,which is hugely effective.This Year they couldn't field a 15's side.
Maybe,the demographics are different in your area,and you don't experience it.
But it's a real thing, that is affecting participation numbers.

This. When I first started playing rugby I knew no one in the team. Now I still stay in contact with a few boys from all the teams I ever played in.

Also my rugby team went on a tour to NZ in the under 15's and we had 21 guys (I think) go on that tour. The next year, only like 4 players from that year (including me) signed up again.

Also this year in the under 16's there's only 10 teams in 2 divisions. In comparison, there is 24 teams in 4 divisions in the u15's in the BJRU.

Anyhoo, back on topic...

 

[RugbyReg]

Your kids are obviously not big enough to have been lined up by someone literally twice their body weight with clear intent to hurt them..

What do you mean not big enough? Isn't that the whole argument? If you mean old enough them my eldest is 13 and is playing in under 14s at the moment. Not because of size (he's small for 13) so don't worry, he's facing some big lads.

But feel free to assume away.

Look clearly many think this is an issue.

I haven't seen it myself.



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[Lindommer]

Couldn't disagree more, Reg. I had the misfortune to ref a game between one of my club's sides (not my son's team) and another from parts distant in Sydney where there was a massive size mismatch. The first manifestation of this was a broken collar bone to one of my club's lot; the second was a flogging of more than 50-0, or somesuch. That was before I stopped the game at about the 50 minute mark due to genuine concern for the smaller boys in my club's team. But the really troubling issue was the talk of the parents about their sons' future involvement in rugby.

That was a micro incident in the greater picture of junior rugby. Another one: Rodney Blake and Salesi Ma'afu played in the same junior team at my club from, about, under 13s. During that time they didn't lose one club match, and damned nearly won two state championships masquerading as district rep sides. During their round comps I reckon they had, about, a third of their matches won on forfeit; other clubs feared for their safety aside from getting flogged. Both Rodney and Salesi would've been much more evenly matched by playing in a group where they were somewhat the same size as their opposition, not behemoths. Their physical superiority was neither beneficial to their participation in junior rugby nor to their opponents.

Doing something about weight/size grading MUST happen to Australian junior rugby.

 

[USARugger]

As a half.. blokes nearly twice your size running down your throat is hardly limited to Juniors!

I do think that some type of sliding scale system with some room left for discretion by the local union is in the best interest of developing skillful players from a young age.

 

[CatchnPass]

As manager for a strong A Div team last year I saw 3 rep level kids who know how to tackle have their season ended by serious injury when playing against very large opposition. It's not a skill issue, its simple physics - the kid who weighs 90 - 110+ kg and runs the 100 in 11.4 crashing into the kid who is 55-65kgs and either static or slightly misaligned is a recipe for disaster and something has to change for rugby to be sustainable. For those saying it wasn't a problem when they played as a teenager, the simple reality is that there were many less over developed and PI boys playing then than there are today. That's inevitably a race based but not intended to not be racist observation - statistically the PI lads are larger in mid teen years than anglo kids. That's a reality NZ rugby confronted successfully many years ago and we need to do the same or our game is destined to wither away through more Brad Harrisons (and many more Mums reading the article) withdrawing their kids.

 

[RugbyReg]

Couldn't disagree more, Reg.

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with here Lindo.

Regardless it's clear I haven't had the same experiences many others have and so be it.

 

[Rugrat]

As a half.. blokes nearly twice your size running down your throat is hardly limited to Juniors!

I do think that some type of sliding scale system with some room left for discretion by the local union is in the best interest of developing skillful players from a young age.

The problem with leaving it to local bodies to make a ruling on this issues is that you don't then have a national policy to promote the benefits of the system to get more kids to play rugby. It also then shifts liability to the local union and creates an ongoing ever changing national landscape. This is what the national body is for, to make decisions and policy for the benefit of the game and how we play it.

 

[Scrubber2050]

The advent of large numbers of PI kids is having an effect on the junior game. Generally the larger ones are huge. Before any racist shit is leveled at me the same goes with large Caucasian lads.

It is not sport when a 100+ kg kid comes against 50-60 kg lads. Weight divisions should be implemented.

No wonder Mothers are taking their lads to AFL and friggin' soccor

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The advent of large numbers of PI kids is having an effect on the junior game. Generally the larger ones are huge. Before any racist shit is leveled at me the same goes with large Caucasian lads.

It is not sport when a 100+ kg kid comes against 50-60 kg lads. Weight divisions should be implemented.

No wonder Mothers are taking their lads to AFL and friggin' soccor

Indeed. Saying that PI kids are huge and are changing the dynamic of the junior game is merely a statement of fact and not in any way racist IMHO. The Kiwi's have been dealing with this same issue for longer than us and my understanding was that they had a form of weight for age. Something like this:

http://www.aucklandrugby.co.nz/Weights-and-Ages-Chart.aspx

 

[Ado Tornado]

A couple of things. Firstly it's a real thing here in Oz and particularly in Victoria where we have a disproportionately large PI community involved in the game by comparison to other states. I have seen as recently as last weekend big PI boys with an easy 40-50 kg over their opponents. The Nz model is great but in iz the limited and unlimited weight based comp won't work because we don't have the player numbers. The simplest way forward is to create a weight bandwidth for each age group. If your above the prescribed weight bandwidth for your age group you play up a year. If your below it, you play down a year. Simple. Boys are safer, mums are happy. More kids on the park.


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[papabear]

I still remember going against ashfield boys in year 7 and they were men and we were boys.

I think the bigger issue is with how the pathways work and identifying kids who are just big as opposed to those who will grow at a later stage but a far higher level of talent.

I agree with the comments regarding people all playing with the same year group for friendship sake. IMO injuries will come regardless of size difference.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I still remember going against ashfield boys in year 7 and they were men and we were boys.

I think the bigger issue is with how the pathways work and identifying kids who are just big as opposed to those who will grow at a later stage but a far higher level of talent.

I agree with the comments regarding people all playing with the same year group for friendship sake. IMO injuries will come regardless of size difference.

There will always be injuries - no one disputes that.

But when a 100+ kid uses his weight to fall onto a 50kg kid the likelihood of injury is increased dramatically

 

[papabear]

There will always be injuries - no one disputes that.

But when a 100+ kid uses his weight to fall onto a 50kg kid the likelihood of injury is increased dramatically

I was the 50 kg kid, I got hammered and so shall all the other 50 kg kids after me.

Honestly though, I wouldnt mind either way with weight grading.

In the end you will end up with faster , stronger, more skill full, heavier players on a park. Juniors for the most part should be about having a bit of fun...

 

[Scrubber2050]

I was the 50 kg kid, I got hammered and so shall all the other 50 kg kids after me.

Honestly though, I wouldnt mind either way with weight grading.

In the end you will end up with faster , stronger, more skill full, heavier players on a park. Juniors for the most part should be about having a bit of fun.

Mate the faster blokes on the junior fields are those little blokes trying to keep away from the huge blokes. Those that "survive" often become tough and very good footballers.

My young bloke was about 60-70 kg and loved playing the big blokes. Generally the bigger PI boys would give it in if you just kept hitting them.

Anyway, it's all about the mommy's and their perception

 

[Eric]

You would have to blind... or been at the bottom of too many rucks . .. or not watch junior rugby ... to not realise that the weight difference on the field is a big, if not the biggest, worry for parents (and therefore participation of their kids) . We are not talking about just a 50% difference... Read the original article in the SMH and check the pictures... it is ridiculous in the extreme to think that a 40kg kid playing a contact sport on the same paddock as a 80 to 100kg kid is somehow ok.
Rugby at this level is meant to be a bit of fun and build team skills with the kids - not a pissing contest amongst a few dads to somehow decide whose son is the ‘has the right stuff’.

That bloke who thinks that teaching correct tackling technique is the answer.. Mate, have you ever actually been, or can remember being, at the bottom of a ruck?! You can have the best coach, but no amount of coaching will ensure you hit with the right timing/footwork at even most contacts... and it will do nothing if the big guy decides he wants to hurt/intimidate you, the ball carrier, and he is 2+ times your weight.

And those blokes who seemed to imply ‘I did it - so my son can too’ ... well if you are old enough to have sons playing junior rugby... you probably didn’t do ‘It’ .. that is - have to face a team with 2 or 3 players that are twice your body weight... simply because it is only in the last 15 or 20years that islander kids have become so predominant in some areas.
Lets put this into perspective... George Gregan came in at around 85kg – he never once faced a 160 to 200kg forward let alone 2 or 3 ... and there would be an outcry if he did ....

Mismatched weight in age based division of junior rugby affects participation rates. It also affects skill levels. If coaches from U8s up get results by putting a couple of big boppers up front why put lots of time into catch pass skills? Why have big boppers learn catch pass if they can run over someone half their size? By the time U19 rolls around most players still playing are the bash'em style with limited skills.

Bring in Weight Division. If you have 3000 kids lining up to play a sport you can divide them up by eye colour, favourite movie, age or weight... There is still 3000 kids. For the past 20 years the argument has been that we don't have enough kids to go around ... just dumb. Compare that to the cuzzy bros in UnZud and look at the outcome of weight classification.... In UnZud juniors it is difficult to run through people because they are similar weight. Teams have to develop skills, teamwork and a rugby brain to do well.

The big one. Concussion. We have all noticed it is a talking point among sports doctors.
Junior games where there are a couple of concussions and injuries requiring an ambulance are becoming more common place. Clubs forfeiting games are common place. Schools forfeiting games is not uncommon. Uncontested scrums are common. Kids are getting serious concussion injuries and even without the well publicised deaths from concussion this should be something we, as parents, should be pushing for more action on. Although you can find SCAT3 downloads on ARU it is not pushed at club level like it is in NZ where a SCAT fail is a mandatory 3 weeks off for under 15s. Given the physics involved in a collision contest it would seem to be a no-brainer that you would at least have to have the participants a similar weight.

This topic has been kicked around for years. Nick Farr-Jones wrote a piece about it a few years back when one of the Sydney GPS schools forfeited a match. No-one is saying Rugby is an extreme sport... or the most dangerous sport... but when a simple fix to an obvious problem would go a long way to helping out a sport that is sadly not coping, I and a few others find it staggering the ARU is still sitting on it's hands.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Big trouble with this topic and the identification of the larger players being PI (in the main) and the limiting of them playing age rugby through a weight division system is that people/posters/QRU/ARU etc etc are scared to shit about the minority voicing the "race" card.

No-one in authority is prepared to take a stand and the subsequent responsibility because they become very easy "targets"

IT IS NOT TARGETING SPECIFIC RACIAL GROUPS, MERELY LADS OF ANY ETHNIC BACKGROUND WHO ARE VERY LARGE FOR THEIR AGE

 

[Viking]

I have a plan.

We have weight classes AND age limits - but also a restriction that a player is only required to go up a single weight class if he exceeds the weight limit. Although players are encouraged to go up to their weight class no player is required to go up 2 age barriers if they choose not too.

I don't like the idea of a U13 player required to play with U15's, you can't expect a 13 year old to be able to connect socially with a 15 year old. Their will be a mis-match and the 13 year will not enjoy it.

But forcing a player to go up a single age class could certainly be necessary for safety reason's and shouldn't hinder the players social ability to connect with his team-mates too much.

 

[Scrubber2050]

It is a tough dilemma.

You have the social aspect (and rugby is all about that) and the safety one.

 

[southsider]

And those blokes who seemed to imply ‘I did it - so my son can too’ . well if you are old enough to have sons playing junior rugby. you probably didn’t do ‘It’ .. that is - have to face a team with 2 or 3 players that are twice your body weight. simply because it is only in the last 15 or 20years that islander kids have become so predominant in some areas.
Lets put this into perspective. George Gregan came in at around 85kg – he never once faced a 160 to 200kg forward let alone 2 or 3 . and there would be an outcry if he did ..

I've played junior rugby within the past 10 years and am very much in the camp of "i did it so they can do it too", whilst i was always among the tallest in my team i was always one of the lightest and had my fair share of getting rag dolled by much bigger kids, especially the big islander kids.

Looking back at it i saw it as an important stepping stone in learning
1) How to tackle in general
2) How to deal with players that significantly outweighed me

To provide an example i played against Queensland Reds Sam Talakai all through my club juniors. Believe it or not Sam and his cousin Joe were very close to the height/weight Sam is now, when they were 11-12 years old. For a few years their team would smash us every time they played us and it wasn't a matter of it being a team effort as the two swapped clubs several times and each time the club they played for would smash us, these two guys were just huge and killed us.

As we got older the tides started to turn and we learnt how to deal with the bigger boys to the point where we were smashing them and they became ineffective after the first half.

My point being as the small skinny kid who was horrible at tackling i look back at those sort of guys i played against and realize i was much better off for the experience, sure there is the chance for injury but there is always going to be that chance and it is part of playing sport. If you feel your child is not up to it then drop them down and let the kids who want to rise to the challenge of playing bigger players do so.