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Lance is a cheat? Yes or no

Discussion in 'Cycling' started by I like to watch, Jun 14, 2012.


Lance is a cheat?

Yes 42 vote(s) 84.0%
No 8 vote(s) 16.0%
  1. matty_k Peter Johnson (47)

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    They better be 100% positive that they were 100% clean.
    I like to watch likes this.
  2. Torn Hammy Johnnie Wallace (23)

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    They will have his ball for breakfast. Just think of all the interest and legal costs he will be up for with all of his preemptive litigation.
    Gristlechewer likes this.
  3. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    yep, he will be in a bit of strife.
    Bear in mind this is not a major sponsor.
    There will be multiple sponsors for this amount of money,and several sponsors for significantly more.
  4. Ignoto Peter Fenwicke (45)

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    Which runners up are going to go after him? I'd dare say 75-90% of the runners ups have been turfed out for cheating as well.
  5. daz Guest

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    You raise a good point, and of course I hold all drug cheats in the same contempt.

    I guess with cycling, the saga is so widespread that it is easier to hold one person up as the figurehead to represent everyone. I don't dislike Armstrong any more than other cyclists who have gone down the same path, but he did it bigger than anyone.

    From now on, if an athlete dopes, he/she will have "done an Armstrong". I wonder if I can get that into Websters dictionary?
    Torn Hammy and Ignoto like this.
  6. Jethro Tah Bob Loudon (25)

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    Here's a good read; Robert Millar on the UCI, Armstrong and the mismanaging of the EPO era - http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/robert-millar/the-bare-minimum
    Some interesting quotes;
    "At the last Tour de France ('93) I rode, a quick poll of my friends and colleagues in the peloton revealed that EPO was available to everyone regardless of the team budget or ambition. They weren't happy about it as the difference was no longer a question of how good an athlete you were, it was that plus how good your doctor was with the new drugs."
    "So the riders found themselves in the situation of go to 50% and be a good professional or get blasted every day and at the end of the year it'll be bye-bye. When it's your dream job, you aren't yet mature enough to have a strong moral compass and are surrounded by an unhealthy environment there aren't many people who are going to stand up and shout that this is wrong. Add to that the ridicule that would be unleashed upon anyone who told the real truth and you have the perfect ingredients for the omertà."
  7. stoff Alex Ross (28)

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    One interesting other potential lawsuit I have seen is a private one that Floyd Landis has filed as a whistleblower. The suit accuses Armstrong of a $60m fraud against the US Government (US Postal Service is a government agency). If Floyd suit is succesful he is entitled to something like 15% of the damages awarded under US whistleblower laws. Apparently the US Government is considering joining this suit with Landis. Just to add another twist, if Landis' suit is succesful, he will need to use part of that money to pay off his own fraud settlement to those who donated money towards his legal defense of his own doping charges. Damn this thing is murky. Going to take years to fully unravel.
  8. Torn Hammy Johnnie Wallace (23)

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    Bit of irony here Stoff given that Landis rode for US Postal doped to the eyeballs for 3 years.

    One piont I'd like to make is that while I don't know about junior cycling, I have coached very talented kids who have walked away from their sport at the age of 18 or younger because they realise that drugs are required to progress further. This is why I refuse to go along with the 'everyone was doing it' argument.
  9. Ignoto Peter Fenwicke (45)

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    Makes you wonder why coaches who have drug history's are allowed anywhere near the teams/riders. It always seems to be the riders fault when they've been caught doping when the coach I would dare say has a huge say/influence over the rider's actions and in some cases forces them to take the PED's.
  10. Bardon Peter Fenwicke (45)

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  11. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    Yeah, I read that he will confess to something in an attempt to have his disqualification lifted, so he is able to compete again.
    He has absolutely zero contrition about any of this.
    I hope he stays barred for life.
  12. Torn Hammy Johnnie Wallace (23)

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    I agree ILTW. I don't really care about Armstrong any more, but an interview with him surrounded by his mansion, artworks and executive toys will be a very negative look.

    Sadly, the true legacy of drug cheats to young aspiring athletes, is that they win and usually make a lot of money.

    In the College football final a commentator revealed that Australia's 22 year old Jesse Williams bench presses 275kg. This concerns me.
  13. en_force_er Geoff Shaw (53)

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    Armstrong is going to admit enough that it improves his reputation. Obviously healing his reputation 100% is impossible but improving it from where it is now is very possible (that and I'm sure he'll get a nice sum of money). It's all PR really.

    For example, he may say something like "I used performance enhancers to recover my fitness after cancer because I wanted to do it for my kids" or "I saw all the people around me doing it and I wanted to be competitive because it's the sport I love".

    It'll be a bullshit and very mitigated response in which he won't say anything that will make him liable to anyone or make him look bad.

    Though they may go for a Ben Cousins-esc take on the whole thing, different type of drugs but it can still be handled in a similar way.

    As for the bench press, my Dad mentioned it and it is mighty suss (specially at 22). I think the World Record RAW bench is around 350kg, so maybe that's possible? I don't know, I have a good knowledge of powerlifting and the gym but next to no knowledge on the differences drugs make.

    I do think plenty of American Footballers are on drugs, though I have no proof.
  14. Ignoto Peter Fenwicke (45)

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    With the size of his chest, the bar is only going down 1/4 of the way compared to other people. But this Defensive/Offensive linesmen are all about raw power. No fitness, just explosive and strong.

    Getting back onto Armstrong - Personally I couldn't careless. It won't change anything, sure throw the book at him. But throw the book at Landis, Ulrich, Basso etc. They won't as they've been gunning to lynch Armstrong since the early 2000's.
  15. Torn Hammy Johnnie Wallace (23)

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    My biggest concern is that as professional sport becomes more financially rewarding, we will see drugs appear earlier in that sport's athlete pathway.

    When the top college coach is paid $6 million a year and the star athletes get a $5 million sign on fee from the senior franchises, the temptation to push boundaries is huge. Particularly when the sanction for 1st and 2nd perfomance enhancing offences is only a 4 and 8 week banning! My point is that Alabama, their coach and Jesse Williams set a very high standard. I hope they did it clean and I hope those who want to challenge them do it clean.

    I recommend 'Positive' by Werner Reiterer if you want to understand this problem better. He cites a survey that suggested 6% of American high school footballers are on steroids to enhance their prospects of a college scholarship. Given the number of kids playing football, that is a depressing statistic.
  16. Bruwheresmycar Nicholas Shehadie (39)

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    I reckon he will continue denying everything and is just trying to trick a wider audience with his standard replies. Happy to be proved wrong though..
  17. It is what it is John Solomon (38)

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    Typically Australians are very forgiving of villains who come clean, cry on cue, apologise, and promise never to do it again.
    For mine, Armstrong doesn't come near this category of villain and my hope is people aren't bluffed by his words or actions ever again.
    He has been a vindictive bully, shown zero remorse, misled thousands of 'true believers', lied to authorities,sponsors and fans and sneered at anyone asking even the simplest of questions.
    And all this happened over a sustained period of time on the global stage.
    In history, has any single participant ever done as much damage to their sport as this impostor?
    On ya bike I say.
  18. Bruwheresmycar Nicholas Shehadie (39)

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  19. Ash Michael Lynagh (62)

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    You mean:
    Landis - caught and banned, career was ruined
    Ulrich - barred from the TdF in 2006 then forced to retire to avoid being caught and banned, later had his 2005 results stripped
    Basso - caught and banned

    Meanwhile, until very, very recently, Armstrong had stopped getting anything to stick. And then there were the frequent horror stories of the way Armstrong ruined people's lives basically on whims.

    Armstrong was the poster boy, and one of the loudest voices on how clean he was. There's just so much rubbish in the Armstrong story, from the "donations" to his obviously doped blood levels in his come back. Every fan of cycling should want Armstrong gone for good as a symbol of that crazy era. The fact he was finally caught was just music to my ears.
    I like to watch likes this.
  20. Ignoto Peter Fenwicke (45)

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    I don't think any of them bar Landis have any form of civil or criminal charges coming out of what they did? Plenty of sponsors have come out and said they want their appearances fees given to Armstrong returned etc. It doesn't seem like the same level of "justice" has been sought from those three? Hell Basso is still riding.

    This isn't me siding with Armstrong, rather than crucifying one kingpin, crucify all of them.

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