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Lance is a cheat? Yes or no

Discussion in 'Cycling' started by I like to watch, Jun 14, 2012.

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Lance is a cheat?

Yes 42 vote(s) 84.0%
No 8 vote(s) 16.0%
  1. tigerland12 John Thornett (49)

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    Moses likes this.
  2. redstragic Nicholas Shehadie (39)

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    Corruption allegations to be aired on 4corners tonight. It on the abc website. After reading that thing Gagger posted and a bunch of other stuff over the weekend sounds like this story will go on and on as people who may have been wronged tell their story without fear of lawyers.

    I don't agree with the standpoint that drugs were part of that time and everybody did it. It is against the rules. Flaunt that and how far will you go to win?

    How many GT's would Cadel have won if it was a level playing field?
  3. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    This could end up leading to a massive clean out in the sport and that would be on balance a good thing.
  4. Ignoto Chilla Wilson (44)

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    Doesn't anyone find it ironic that the likes of Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis etc have "testified" against Lance's "demanding" nature of taking banned substances.

    So, Lance "forced" them to use these drugs during their time on the Postal Team. Why did they continue to use these drugs when they were riding for other teams? When Hamilton was caught, he was riding for Team CSC (which is another huge drug ridden team) and in preparation for the 2004 Olympics. Landis had that miracle day while racing for Phonak, two years after his stint with Postal. Additionally, he duped people into donating him money to fight his "I'm Innocent" claim against his ban.

    Both examples had moved teams and were away from Lance, but if they were so against taking drugs and were being told/forced to do it whilst riding for Postal, why did they continue?

    Sure Lance is guilty, but bloody hell, people need to stop making it out that he's the anti-christ.
  5. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    ATM we have a guy who dominated a sport for a decade by cheating, who has shown absolutely no remorse,and has yet to admit to the now undeniable fact that he is a fraud.
    Further he has been aggressive in defending claims against him for many years.
    When Lance comes out and admits it and apologises, then people might change their attitude.
    I just hope that he loses every dime he ever earnt,because it was all based on a lie.
    Torn Hammy, ChargerWA and Baldric like this.
  6. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    So Lance is the figurehead, and seems to have drawn all the attention.

    I only hope that ALL the drug cheats are outed, and USADA pursue them all with the same zeal that they chased LA and the Postal Team.

    Having cracked this particular pit of vipers, they need to keep going to round them all up, or this will smell like a simple personal vendetta.

    Never being one too keen to rewrite history, if you are going to do so, then at least be consistent, and deliver justice for all.

    Cadel could be looking good for a couple more TDF titles.
    AngrySeahorse and Ignoto like this.
  7. stoff Alex Ross (28)

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    I heard today that there is an 8 year statute of limitations on catching drug cheats and that WADA, ASADA, USADA and the other ADAs can only store and re-test samples for this time period. I assume this makes it very hard to go after anybody unless there is other evidence as per the Armstrong case. Apparently he was only still able to be pursued as he had actively covered up the doping. A passive cover up such as not being caught is not enough to take the statute of limitations out of play. Can anyone confirm this?

    I think the only solution left is the general amnesty that Pat McQuaid suggested. Give them amnesty from suspension but remove anything they won while doping from their palmares. Once that amnesty period is over, go back and test any sample that exists for any rider who is still active, and if they find anything, ban them for life. They also need to stop joke sanctions like Contador's where he only missed a few months of competitive riding due to his appeals process. You serve your full ban, from the date your national federation or doping agency ban comes into affect and you stop racing. These bans should also be at least doubled in order to increase the deterrent affect. Tough measures, but the sport needs to act tough for its own sake.
    Moses likes this.
  8. Bruwheresmycar Nicholas Shehadie (39)

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    US Postal are one of the last to go, the doping agencies do go after all drug cheats. The reason it's taken this long for this lot is because it seems there was corruption in the UCI that Lance (or someone associated with his team) exploited.

    Just see this: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/TdF 1996-2005.pdf

    And not to mention dopers get caught all the time, most people just don't read about it in mainstream news.
  9. AngrySeahorse Peter Sullivan (51)

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    Thanks for bringing this up redstragic, just watched the episode. Very interesting indeed.
  10. ChargerWA Mark Loane (55)

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    I think the best way to stamp out doping is to make the bans so severe that anyone caught doping would be too old to compete once their ban was lifted.
  11. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    Tend to agree with that. Top line athletes have much greater longevity these days and the punishments for cheating should rise commensurate with those longer careers.

    What was interesting was an interview I heard a snippet of in the car on Saturday. It was ABC Grandstand and I don't know who the interviewee was, but they were talking about how easy it was to avoid being caught by the use of masking agents and other substances. That kind of methodology has been around for a couple of generations, of course, but it was still interesting to hear about the techniques cyclists were using during in-competition testing.

    I sometimes wonder whether the anti-drugs effort is worth it. The labs will always be a step ahead of the testing regimes and there are times when I catch myself thinking that perhaps it should be open slather. I don't really want that to happen, but it is interesting to ponder.
  12. Moses Simon Poidevin (60)

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    Thoughts on criminal charges for drug cheats?
  13. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    If the sponsorship contracts required the athlete to sign a stat dec stating they had not used performance enhancing drugs/techniques,and the athlete understood that the sponsors were reliant upon that statement in order to make these payments.
    The athletes would be in deep poo if they were ever caught.They would be up for both civil & criminal charges.
  14. Ignoto Chilla Wilson (44)

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    There's a couple problems with placing criminal charges on drug cheats. Like, what jurisdiction are they going to be trialled in, who's going to enact this legislation? Say Cadal gets caught doping in France, do we really think he'd get a fair trial over there? Plus, there's no guarantee that having criminal charges will work. Look locally, there's always a demand for our Government to raise the jail-time for Pedophille, Murder, Rape etc but people will still commit these offences.

    It's a similar scenario that we face regarding drug laws now (that's recreational), it's a lost battle that law enforcement are fighting, people still take illegal drugs, import them etc because they all believe the risk is worth it or don't think they'll be caught.

    Honestly, the Athlete's aren't the problem. It's more to with the management and team-leaders. Sure, throw the book at those athlete's caught cheating, but to say the likes of Riis and Bruyneel who were the managers/coaches of Team CSC and Postal etc get off scott free is wrong. If you create an atmosphere that is against cheating then you might make some headway.
    Moses likes this.
  15. ChargerWA Mark Loane (55)

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    The complicated view is that these cheat are essentially stealing from other competitors, supporters and society in general by accepting prize money and accolades which aren't due to them.

    But criminal charges are extremely difficult, as it is impossible to predict what would have happened if they didn't cheat. I suspect Armstrong may have been good enough to win a couple of TDF without cheating (assuming his competitors were'nt as well).

    The only criminal charges I would support are for crimes that currently exist in regards to drugs. If a rider was found to be possessing, selling, trafficking or caught in the act of taking drugs they should receive the same penalty as a recreational drug user.

    It really should be up to the governing body to deal with the ingrained culture of doping. As guardians of the sport it is their responsibility to stamp it out and restore the reputation of the sport.
    tigerland12 and The_Brown_Hornet like this.
  16. ChargerWA Mark Loane (55)

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    As an aside, the UCI's best defence against drugs should be compulsory registration and education of the team managers and doctors. They need to kill the culture from the top down, as these are the people influencing the young cyclists coming into the elite field and providing the know how on how to cheat.
  17. Hugh Jarse Rocky Elsom (76)

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    Ignato makes a point above about which jurisdiction the charges will be laid.

    Take the case of Wendell Sailor, who was banned for traces of a recreational (not performance enhancing drug) in his system. For the purposes of the exercise let us just accept that the recreational substance detected was Marijuana.

    There are some European jurisdictions where marijuana is decriminalised, if not legalised. If Dell Boy had indulged in that recreational pursuit in one of those jurisdictions, perfectly legally, then what punishment if any should apply. There are some Asian jurisdictions where that same activity is rather harshly punished.

    Should athletes be tested for recreational drugs at all?

    Passing consistent legislation across all jurisdictions to criminalise possession and use of performance enhancing substances would be extremely challenging if not impossible.
    Ignoto likes this.
  18. Torn Hammy Johnnie Wallace (23)

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    People have to stop saying that Armstrong would have been the best anyway and that it was a level playing field.

    This is the Ben Jonson defence, but he has no answer when asked about all the clean athletes he had beaten since he started taking drugs at the age of 19 or 20.

    There is an enormous number of athletes who drop out of their sport when they realise drugs are required to advance.
  19. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    Didn't every single person in the final at Seoul get caught at some stage?
    Not that I am supporting cheating, just making the point that at the pointy end they are all doing it.
  20. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    I don't really buy that argument either. With that said, if everyone was on the gear what conclusions can you draw one way or the other? The arguments basically cancel each other out for mine.

    The point about clean athletes giving up at an early age is well made though.

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