Proposed Nations Championship

[Rebels3]

These guys who want to shower money all over rugby are most certainly not doing it for the good of the game.

The unions would do well to recognise this. Getting into bed with these PE type guys will 100% result in faces getting ripped off.

I have no issue with it, unfortunately if you don’t invest you die. The real issue is deciding which allot of cash prepares your sport for the future the best. There is plenty of cash injections in all walks of business/sport etc that can be beneficial for both parties. If both parties can make money from it, it just attracts more potential investors of which once again needs to be evaluated.

Agree tho that PE firms might not be the best option if they get a large controlling stake

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

These guys who want to shower money all over rugby are most certainly not doing it for the good of the game.

The unions would do well to recognise this. Getting into bed with these PE type guys will 100% result in faces getting ripped off.

Of course they aren't doing from the goodness of their own hearts. I seriously doubt anyone is entering this thinking otherwise.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I have no issue with it, unfortunately if you don’t invest you die. The real issue is deciding which allot of cash prepares your sport for the future the best. There is plenty of cash injections in all walks of business/sport etc that can be beneficial for both parties. If both parties can make money from it, it just attracts more potential investors of which once again needs to be evaluated.

Agree tho that PE firms might not be the best option if they get a large controlling stake

In the interview on Greenwood's podcast Martin briefly touches on how they may look to realise their investment. But one key one is that they are willing to maintain the 6Ns on FTA while the likes of CVC and IMG would in all likelihood be looking for a paywall option.

 

[kiap]

Here's a look at a 10 team NC (Nations Championship). In itself, this NC tournament requires 9 rounds.

• The Six Nations remains unchanged every year (the Euro conference is a separate thing, albeit overlapping).

• Initially the top five 6N teams (and TRC teams + Fiji) get to compete for this NC Cup every two years.

• However a non-6N team such as Georgia has a chance (slim though it may be) of promotion to the NC cup, provided that team is better, say, head-to-head than the fifth best 6N side, averaged over 2 years.

• Similarly, the best Rest-of-the-world team also has a chance of promotion at expense of the lowest TRC+1 team.

The example below shows what this might look like IF (big if) Georgia is better than Scotland and Italy:

 

[zer0]

 

[kiap]

Lemme spell it out in a few steps with catchphrases that rugby fans know and love (well, not me, obviously … other rugby fans):

1. Round-robin (kiwis love that shit)
2. Six nations untouched (british and irish catnip)
3. ???
4. Profit! (that ever-elusive holy grail for the bunch of bankers running oz rugby)

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Here's a look at a 10 team NC (Nations Championship). In itself, this NC tournament requires 9 rounds.

• The Six Nations remains unchanged every year (the Euro conference is a separate thing).

• Initially the top five 6N teams (and TRC teams + Fiji) get to compete for this NC Cup every two years.

• However a non-6N team such as Georgia has a chance (slim though it may be) of promotion to the NC cup, provided that team is better, say, head-to-head than the fifth best 6N side, averaged over 2 years.

• Similarly, the best Rest-of-the-world team also has a chance of promotion at expense of the lowest TRC+1 team.

The example below shows what this might look like IF (big if) Georgia is better than Scotland and Italy:


View attachment 10516

When will this run?

 

[kiap]

When will this run as a general rule?

Every second year, e.g. 2020, 2022.

Matches played within existing windows:

• 6N: Feb-Mar
• Mid-year Tests: July
• TRC: Aug-Oct
• End-year Tests: Nov-Dec

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Every second year, e.g. 2020, 2022.

Matches played within existing windows:

• 6N: Feb-Mar
• Mid-year Tests: July
• TRC: Aug-Oct
• End-year Tests: Nov-Dec

You have the Euro conference being separate from the 6Ns which means it runs during a different window or would this means the 6Ns runs every second year with the Euro conference occupying the same window? Because if the 6Ns runs annually then the Euro conference would have to run during the July window meaning no inbound Tests for SH teams. It could run during the current RC window but you'll have the NH clubs to deal with.

 

[kiap]

You have the Euro conference being separate from the 6Ns which means it runs during a different window

Yeah, but nah. Mainly it doesn't.

The 10 tests comprising the Euro conference will usually be 100% within the 6N window. In the case where a non-6N team is promoted, there could be 6 tests in the 6N window, 2 in the Mid-year window and 2 in the End-of-year window.

1. To break this down … in the first instance:

• Eng-Ire-Sco-Wal-Fra-Ita … play their 6N tournament EVERY year … same as now. So, 5 matches played by each team within that 15-game tournament.

• Lowest 6N team, averaged over 2 years … e.g. Italy, misses the Nations Championship.

• This nation can still play T1 teams, incl. Sanzaar sides, and high performance T2 teams (USA, Samoa, et al) during the July or November windows.

• One match per year (in the minimum scenario) is played as a Euro promo-relegation encounter - cumulative home and away over two years. F'rinstance:

5th placed 6N … say Scotland, plays the best non-6N team … e.g. Georgia. The overall winner plays up in the following Euro conference in two years time. A more expansive scenario might involve a three-way contest by adding the 6N wooden spooner.​

2. In the event of a promotion:

• Eng-Ire-Sco-Wal-Fra-Ita … STILL play their 6N tournament EVERY year … same as now.

• Lowest 6N team, perhaps avg'd over 2 years … e.g. Italy, misses the NC.

• 5th placed 6N team, avg'd 2 years, which LOST the relegation matchups, e.g. England ALSO misses the NC.

• These nations can still play T1 teams, incl. Sanzaar sides, and high performance T2 teams (USA, Samoa, et al) during the July or November windows - although not quite as many per Section 1 above.

• One match per year (in the minimum scenario) is played as a Euro promo-relegation encounter - cumulative home and away over two years. So:

5th placed 6N team … say England, would play the best non-6N team … e.g. Georgia. Overall winner plays up in the following Euro conference in two years time.​

• One match played by each of the top four within 6N against the promoted team, e.g. Georgia. Perhaps two of these matches played in July (top or tail of the respective OS tours), and/or two (or posssibly even three) matches played in Nov/Dec.

What allows this to pretty much fit the schedule is the fact that 12 teams have dropped to 10.

Euro conference would have to run during the July window meaning no inbound Tests for SH teams.

There'll be at least two matches possible for each 6N team on SH tours. Usually there will still be THREE.

6N teams excluded/relegated from the Euro conference (should there be more than one) also need July matches … and perhaps even T2s such as the US and their ilk make a rare appearance.

The schedule pressure is, firstly, on the proposed Nations Champion final for the top teams. If there is to be a final, this always had to be shoe-horned by World Rugby at the end of the year. A squeeze may similarly apply in the promoted scenario to Georgia (allow me to use that side's name for 'the non-6N euro team' as shorthand) in terms of release of players.

Inbound SH tests by 6N teams, however, will be okay.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yeah, but nah. Mainly it doesn't.

The 10 tests comprising the Euro conference will usually be 100% within the 6N window. In the case where a non-6N team is promoted, there could be 6 tests in the 6N window, 2 in the Mid-year window and 2 in the End-of-year window.

1. To break this down … in the first instance:

• Eng-Ire-Sco-Wal-Fra-Ita … play their 6N tournament EVERY year … same as now. So, 5 matches played by each team within that 15-game tournament.

• Lowest 6N team, averaged over 2 years … e.g. Italy, misses the Nations Championship.

• This nation can still play T1 teams, incl. Sanzaar sides, and high performance T2 teams (USA, Samoa, et al) during the July or November windows.

• One match per year (in the minimum scenario) is played as a Euro promo-relegation encounter - cumulative home and away over two years. F'rinstance:

5th placed 6N … say Scotland, plays the best non-6N team … e.g. Georgia. The overall winner plays up in the following Euro conference in two years time. A more expansive scenario might involve a three-way contest by adding the 6N wooden spooner.​

2. In the event of a promotion:

• Eng-Ire-Sco-Wal-Fra-Ita … STILL play their 6N tournament EVERY year … same as now.

• Lowest 6N team, perhaps avg'd over 2 years … e.g. Italy, misses the NC.

• 5th placed 6N team, avg'd 2 years, which LOST the relegation matchups, e.g. England ALSO misses the NC.

• These nations can still play T1 teams, incl. Sanzaar sides, and high performance T2 teams (USA, Samoa, et al) during the July or November windows - although not quite as many per Section 1 above.

• One match per year (in the minimum scenario) is played as a Euro promo-relegation encounter - cumulative home and away over two years. So:

5th placed 6N team … say England, would play the best non-6N team … e.g. Georgia. Overall winner plays up in the following Euro conference in two years time.​

• One match played by each of the top four within 6N against the promoted team, e.g. Georgia. Perhaps two of these matches played in July (top or tail of the respective OS tours), and/or two (or posssibly even three) matches played in Nov/Dec.

What allows this to pretty much fit the schedule is the fact that 12 teams have dropped to 10.



There'll be at least two matches possible for each 6N team on SH tours. Usually there will still be THREE.

6N teams excluded/relegated from the Euro conference (should there be more than one) also need July matches … and perhaps even T2s such as the US and their ilk make a rare appearance.

The schedule pressure is, firstly, on the proposed Nations Champion final for the top teams. If there is to be a final, this always had to be shoe-horned by World Rugby at the end of the year. A squeeze may similarly apply in the promoted scenario to Georgia (allow me to use that side's name for 'the non-6N euro team' as shorthand) in terms of release of players.

Inbound SH tests by 6N teams, however, will be okay.

Reading now in the sober (emphasis on the sober) light of day. I still think the NC should run outside the 6Ns/RC. It's the simplest way to achieve this in my opinion and would involve Fiji and Japan being elevated to the RC. It would allow for the current structures to be maintained at both the T1 and T2 levels while utilizing the July and November windows for the NC. Which would also mean they could retain their own pro/rel systems that are already in place.

The Rugby Europe Championship already runs in the same window as the 6Ns and the Americas Rugby Championship is being moved to the same window as the RC. Both of which will provide the bulk of the 2nd Div teams anyway. With the exception of Samoa and Tonga. But they can be integrated using the rankings from the ARC replacing the bottom two teams when it comes to the NC. With Arg being part of the RC then would have to drop their Arg XV from the ARC being replaced by the next ranked team which is Colombia.

Similar set up. Two groups of 6 but instead of the groups being split into Europe and RoTW its just A and B. Each with three teams from what would be the Europe and RoTW pools at present. In July the Euro teams tour and in November the RoTW teams do likewise. That's 5 games. The 6th would be the final rankings games plus final. So 6 v 6, 5 v 5 and so on. With the 6 v 6 holding importance and the determining relegation game. Loser goes straight down.

Would work the same in 2nd Div. But with the winner of its final going straight up. A 3rd div could be set up using the Asia Rugby Championship and the Africa Gold Cup as in NC structure with the winner of each playing off for a chance to play the 12th ranked team from the 2nd Div for a spot in the NC.

This could all be bundled together both the NC and the 6Ns/RC/ARC/REC etc.as part of the deal. It would also include 36 nations. Those being;

Europe: England, France, Italy, Scotland, Wales, Italy, Georgia, Romania, Spain, Belgium, Russia, Germany/Portugal.

Americas: Argentina, USA, Canada, Uruguay, Brazil, Chile and Colombia.

Oceania: Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.

Asia: Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Singapore/Philippines.

Africa: South African, Namibia, Kenya, Uganda, Zimbabwe, Zambia/Morrocco/Tunisia.

 

[kiap]

its just A and B. Each with three teams from what would be the Europe and RoTW pools at present. In July the Euro teams tour and in November the RoTW teams do likewise. That's 5 games.

Hang on.

Let's say Pool A is Wal, Ire, Sco, Aus, Arg, Jpn. (E1, E3, E5, R2, R4, R6)

Who does Australia play for their 5 games? … Wales, Ireland, Scotland is fine … but they're already playing Arg and Japan.

Those are LOW ticket games. RA would want Australia to play England and France instead.

40% of those pool games will be double ups against teams already played.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Hang on.

Let's say Pool A is Wal, Ire, Sco, Aus, Arg, Jpn. (E1, E3, E5, R2, R4, R6)

Who does Australia play for their 5 games? … Wales, Ireland, Scotland is fine … but they've already played Arg and Japan.

Those are LOW ticket games. RA would want Australia to play England and France instead.

40% of those pool games will be double ups against teams already played.

Never said it was a perfect solution. There will be some double up but we already have that in the RC as is.

 

[kiap]

Fair enough, no solution is.

Doubling up on SA or NZ is one thing. Playing Japan twice will be a dud draw for Sanzaar teams (even more than two Argie games) when you're missing out on stronger 6N opposition.

I think the way forward needs to keep most of the strong points of the status quo (while adding some opportunity for teams on the rise)

Substituting in lower value tests should be kept to a minumum … otherwise T1 unions won't be in it.

The 6N clearly won't be changing their setup just to suit this new NC. I also think Sanzaar will be wary of Fiji becoming a member. They can still play Fiji and Japan in RC tests without that.

 

[Finsbury Girl]

I have no issue with it, unfortunately if you don’t invest you die. The real issue is deciding which allot of cash prepares your sport for the future the best. There is plenty of cash injections in all walks of business/sport etc that can be beneficial for both parties. If both parties can make money from it, it just attracts more potential investors of which once again needs to be evaluated.

Agree tho that PE firms might not be the best option if they get a large controlling stake

I have major issues with it.

Somehow these firms promise ++ returns. They only have their own interests at heart. Trust me monetisation and risk will not sit together.

There is massive downside with not a lot of upside. As I said the unions will be on the wrong side of this trade every time.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Deadline for Unions to declare if they're for or against has been extended by another week:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby...ns-more-time-to-consider-nations-championship

 

[kiap]

I think the next adaption they should look at is dropping the Nations Championship from 12 teams to 10 teams.

I'm going to call myself Nostril da Mus. I should charge for this shit.

Fiji and Japan on the outer in haggling over new world order​

​

May 15, 2019
by Georgina Robinson​

​

Fiji and Japan look set to be locked out of the Nations Championship until 2026 as World Rugby fights for a compromise to get the controversial global competition over the line.​

… The Herald understands the latest proposal being circulated between the unions proposes the new competition kick off with only the 10 nations in the existing Rugby Championship and Six Nations in 2022 and add 12 teams to the southern hemisphere division from 2026.​

… The major opposition to the competition is still coming from Ireland and Scotland, sources have told the Herald. Given their positions would not be affected by the inclusion of two southern hemisphere teams, it makes a Fiji and Japan shut-out all the more unusual.​

One source suggested a 10-team model would be the quickest way to get the deal across the line, given it would not require any expansion of the Rugby Championship.​

… Broadcast priorities could also be at play, with at least three of the SANZAAR unions facing cooling domestic markets.​

World Rugby is still pushing to get its original concept over the line but that looks an impossibility.​

While not exclusively touting the 10-team model, sources told the Herald it was the most detailed of the alternative proposals circulated by World Rugby in a May 4 paper.​

In that event, World Rugby would still invest heavily in meaningful tier two competitions in the north and south, and potentially guarantee the best of the tier two nations annual Test matches against the tier ones.​

The competition will be discussed at the next round of World Rugby meetings in Dublin next week but the unions are not required to sign on for exclusive negotiations with rightsholder Infront Sports until the end of the month.​

While the likes of South Africa, Australia, Argentina and Wales, in particular, are desperate for financial injection posed by the $9.4 billion Infront deal, it is the SANZAAR unions on the tighter timeline.​

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...ing-over-new-world-order-20190515-p51ns5.html​

 

[Derpus]

Writing's on the wall. Money is drying up across the board, save for Britain & Ireland. WR (World Rugby) is desperate.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Writing's on the wall. Money is drying up across the board, save for Britain & Ireland. WR (World Rugby) is desperate.

Harsh language - WR (World Rugby) are doing their best for the world game. Reality is this is good deal for world rugby and of course struggling southern people hemisphere rugby which if it means 10 team competition from 2022 to 2026 to get it over the line so be it. Rugby’s finances are dire in many places worldwide and this provides key injection to turn that around along with alternative model for Increased rugby growth and revenues.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Latest deadline 22 May and we know castle and co was in Europe discussing world league- wonder whether we will get an update