Line-out Laws & Tactics, any fellow back rowers out there? Need advice!

[AngrySeahorse]

I need some advice from Flankers/Back rowers, or really anyone who’s played, or/& refereed plenty of Rugby. I’ve been playing for a while and I do my own thing come second phase play & open play but at set piece time I’ve always seemed to just do as our fly half/scrum half has told me to do. Now I’m thinking more for myself.

I am going to talk to my coach but I’m interested in getting as many views as possible, we have knowledgeable people on this forum so I was thinking it would be worth posting this in here. There are a few things I’m a bit iffy with & the lack of clarification is making me hesitate a bit which is no good.

This is the scenario:

Opposition is in their own 22 with their throw in to the line-out. I stand at the back of our line-out as Flanker, no lifting or jumping from me.

Tactically this is what I noticed the opposition doing every time they were in that situation:

They throw the ball into the line-out, the opposition jumper at the pod mid way who is lifted catches it then throws the ball down from off the top to the scrum half (so not bringing it down) who passes back to their full back who is close to the side line behind the line-out then does a clearing kick. They did this many times, it appears that although their fly half is a good kicker they doubt her under pressure in their 22 or back beyond that in their own goal line.

This is what my team tells me (or what my Fly half or Scrum half yells at me) to do:

Mark the opposition fly half.

Now this is what I would like to do:

The ball is caught by the opposition jumper, as soon as the ball leaves the hands of that jumper to go to the scrum half I’m off immediately to take out the scrum half, I don’t wait for it to get to the scrum half before I move I look to arrive to hit the scrum half as the ball reaches them.

I have to come in at an angle as the scrum half doesn’t stand in line with where I am as I’m at the back.

At the start of the line-out before the ball is thrown I don’t overstep the line of touch, nor do I cross the offside line that’s through the ball once it has been thrown. I don’t over run the ball when the opposition jumper has caught the ball or when the scrum half has caught it. I stay on my teams’ side of the ball. When I hit the scrum half I’d be at best in line with the ball. I believe this has me covered for most if not all laws governing 19.14 “Offside when taking part in the lineout”.

Why I want to do this is I figure it would prevent a clearing kick & keep us down their end. Even better I may be able to release her, get to my feet then get the ball back or force a penalty from her if she holds on if her forwards are slow to support her & her backs are too far back to do anything.

I did this in a game a while back & either it’s legal or the ref missed it & it is illegal as I got away with it. I thought “this is awesome but it’s so easy, it’s got to be illegal…”.

So, my Questions are:

Is what I am proposing to do in said scenario legal? Looking at laws I cant see anything that says I cant.

I know when the ball is thrown, knocked or kicked out of the lineout, the lineout ends. I take this as when the ball leaves the hands of the jumper not the scrum half – is my interpretation right there? I seem to get confused as the law book has ‘line-out players’ & ‘line-out participating players’ the latter includes the scrum half, the similar terminology makes it a little confusing.

Phew! I thought when I started this post it wouldn’t take much to explain. Wrong!

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Plus I have it in club rugby section as its a question relating the club rugby comp I am in, it didnt really look like it would go with "Everything else".

 

[Prodigy]

Perfectly legal to target the scrum half, as long as you don't be seen to "close the gap" in the lineout, i.e. move into the centre. As a coach, I would prefer my flankers to be targetting their kickers, especially if they are in their own in goal area. If you get to the ball and cause a charge down in which the ball goes dead, your team will get a 5 metre scrum because they carried it to the in goal.
If not, I like my flankers to give the kicker a little nudge (nothing major), just as a "I'm coming at you, watch out for me next time."

Hope it helps, good luck!

 

[Lee Grant]

The best thing is to talk to your coach and state what you have just said.

There's nothing wrong with what you are doing as you are not leaving the lineout until it is over - and it is over when the ball leaves the lineout. In turn, that happens when it leaves the hands of the taker of the ball from the lineout throw - all of which you indicate.

Trouble is that when it is passed to the scrummie and she takes it cleanly at the front or even mid-way up the lineout, you'd have to be pretty quick to get to her before she passes unless it's a bad throw from the top or it's otherwise not handled right.

But if you are capable of getting to her, as you say, I would give it a go - and if even if you do it just once, the scrummie may be forced into error the next time thinking you are breathing down her neck.

It's a bit different if the flyhalf is the principal kicker in that scenario. You probably have a duty then to make a beeline for her. You have a better chance to get to her or threaten a charge down than getting to the fullback who is standing where you mentioned.

Usually making a beeline for the flyhalf is useful as you may force her to stand further away from the 15 metre line, or further back, or both, and that puts more pressure on the scrummie to make a more precise and longer pass.

 

[yourmatesam]

I agree with both posts above. Definitely talk to your coach and put your point across.

Lee's on the money as far as actually getting to the halfback, you'd either be Usain Bolt or it would be a poor throw from the lineout jumper for you to get there that quick for OT ball.

My advice would be to keep your eyes on the ball at all times. If you get the sense that it's a poor throw from the lineout, target the halfback. If you see the halfback is definitely going to pass it, target the kicker.

A decent lineout jumper should always baulk to throw off the top in those situations though, then bring the ball down and pop it to the halfback. This creates the offside lines for all players involved in the lineout and is a milkable penalty if the referee is paying attention to you targetting the kicker.

 

[Bowside]

Just make life as hard as you can for who-ever you can. It seems like they have two kicking options, so maybe getting your hooker to line up the full back and you go for the flyhalf might work. But I liked to mix it up a bit and sometimes creep into the middle of the line out mid sequence and then try and sack the half back. But there is no hard and fast right option in this play. We always use to do 5 mans in our own 22, and then have the other forwards chasing the kick, or if we lost it, tackling....

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Thankyou very much for the helpful replies. Yes, I’m definitely going to ask my coach what exactly is preferred in this scenario.

I was moved from Open flank to Blind flank for a scrum where the opposition was kicking from in their in-goal specifically for the purpose of targeting their kicker, who was on the blind also. I did charge it down, it rebounded off my forearm but it went out over the touch line, so they dodged that one. I totally forgot about that law, I think I spent most of my time focusing on the breakdown laws. Thanks for that Prodigy, I will give a nudge too.

Lee the whole reason I’m looking to try targeting the scrummie is exactly as you said about maybe just doing it once to keep her on her toes. No one in our team really does it & I think she thinks she’s got all the time in the world. Given the fact that the kicker (when it’s the full back) is right behind her almost then it wouldn’t hurt to go for the scrummie as I’ll just keep going straight through to the kicker if I don’t get the scrum half. If I can see they are going to use the fly half I’m definitely thinking to just go to her. I like the whole pressure concept of making her go further away to force a longer pass, that’s pretty appropriate given the DVD recording of this team which shows their 9 and 10 are pretty poor passers when under pressure. Happens to us too.

Yourmatesam, agree regarding keeping eyes on the ball I think I’m leaning towards hitting the scrum half if I believe she isn’t going to get the ball clean & all other times go straight to the kicker. I’m a former winger so I’ll back my speed, lol, seriously though I think targetting the kicker is looking like the best option 99% of the time. The team I’m talking about never seems to bring it down even though we do but I’ll be watching if they do.

Good point Bowside I'm going to talk to my coach about maybe designating certain people in that line-out situation to certain people. They use a short line-out no matter where they are too so sometimes I get dropped & that takes me out of the equation completely. I'm thinking I'll have a go at all their options if we dont go designated markers just so I can test whats going to work best.

At any rate I need all the help I can this team is the minor premiers, we’ve beaten them twice they’ve beaten us twice. It’s going to be tight. Once again thanks for the advice.

 

[Nusadan]

Perhaps another advice is that to make sure that the other team in question doesn't have anyone reading this and find out your tactics...

 

[Lee Grant]

lol

Let's know how it turns out AS.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Perhaps another advice is that to make sure that the other team in question doesn't have anyone reading this and find out your tactics...

Lol, indeed. I did think about that before posting but this was something I was really confused with so I figured I'd ask. Keeping plenty of other 'party tricks' close to my chest for the game. I model my game on McCaw, so I'll have some other stuff, all legal naturally, to pull out come game time.

lol

Let's know how it turns out AS.

Will do, I'll see this weekend who we'll be playing, I'm confident it'll be the team I'm talking about re the line-outs. A couple of my team mates are injured so we've got some pressure on us. I'm already a bit nervy but excited as we havent been in the GF for a couple of years, the other team has done the minor/major double the past two years. Ta.

 

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

Here is a simple formulae and it works for EVERY level of rugby.

1. Throw your best jumper up as close to the 5 metre line putting pressure on the opposition throw.
2. Attack whoever looks like kicking the ball.
3. Tell the bloody flyhalf to get the backs to come up fast as soon as the ball leaves the lineout.

 

[DPK]

3. Tell the bloody flyhalf to get the backs to come up fast as soon as the ball leaves the lineout.

There's your problem. Trying to tell the backs what to do.

 

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

There's your problem. Trying to tell the backs what to do.

Hmmm yeah sounds like the fly half in this case doesn't like 'Having a go' from the earlier posts. Hence the language i used.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Our Flyhalf is alright I just think we forwards can do a bit more, even though we already take on 90% of the total workload

We lift at the front, def the go.

 

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

Our Flyhalf is alright I just think we forwards can do a bit more, even though we already take on 90% of the total workload

We lift at the front, def the go.

Yeah i would coach the jumper to pretend that their hooker is throwing to you. You don't want to get pinned for going too early. More often than not good pressure here will nulify the problem.

Also if they are stupid enough to make the calls at the lineout whilst than prior to getting to a lineout. Get heaps of talk going, yelling things like 'Big jump' 'Our Ball' Basically talk over the top of them. Yell out numbers etc. Bit of gamesmanship to get them off theirs.

 

[Cutter]

A few thoughts:

1. If its easy, its because your opposition back rowers aren't blocking you. If you try to run through they should be dropping the shoulder and otherwise causing you trouble.
2. If you do hare after the half, make sure someone else is covering the dummy or step. You've left a big hole in your lineout and if the half can step you there's plenty of space on the other side of it.
3. Make sure you block on your lineout ball. Also look for ways to take out the opposition player at the back to open up a gap for your half to run through.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Ta Cutter but after all this I may end up lifting in the line-out, one of our back rowers who lifts has a back injury and may not play now. Big blow cause shes a great player but def will keep those points in mind if I end up free at the back.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

WE WON!!! 12-10! Hell yes! Still very drunk. I'll write more later on how the line-outs went when I feel less pukey. I'll do a write up on the game in my Newcastle Rugby Thread in Club Rugby later which also has this same message in there too. FYI the info here on the line-outs did help so thankyou very much!

ANGRY SEAHORSES!

 

[AngrySeahorse]

The rest of the game info is in the Hunter/Newcastle thread but just on the line-outs during the game the info here was very useful. They got smart & started bringing the jumper down with the ball to create the offside lines which nullified my plan of charging the scrum half.

I also ended up playing at tighthead prop, at around 68kg I'm probably the smallest womens prop in history. One of the guys who plays for Hamilton mens told me he plays prop at 78kg and therefore I should be fine. Anyhow that meant I was lifting come line-out time & I was at the back given I'm a bit more mobile. However, when we lost a forward to the bin with about 15min or so to go & our opposition persisted with the 5 woman line-out as they had most of the game I was second from the back, the flanker behind me. The throw in from the opposition was quick, fast & straight but it flew past the top of their front jumpers hands & I (remembering quite consciously to keep my eyes zoned in on the ball) ran forward, then jumped across to take the ball & run about 15-20 odd meters upfield. The opposition failing to block me. Around a couple of minutes later our opponents had another throw in at virtually the same spot again - and I stole that one too in the exact same fashion! It was very satisfying to have something I was tactically concentrating on pay off so well & to do it under pressure when we were short & our opposition were absolutely coming home strong throwing even the kitchen sink at us, given they were only 2 points behind, it made it even better. Had a very good sized crowd that went up for each line-out steal.

 

[yourmatesam]

Good work AS, congrats on your GF win, it's an awesome feeling isn't it!!