Marriage Equality

[liquor box]

Saying you aren't homophobic but don't support gay marriage is a massive contradiction.
.

No it isn't, how does not supporting Gay marriage have anything to do with a fear of Gay people?

I offered a solution to a Lesbian at work, I suggested banning Marriage for all as it was outdated and has a history of oppression against the Homosexual community, and instead just having Civil Unions for all types of couples as the Legal version of what is now known as Marriage. If you want to add a ceremony on top, then this would become a Chruch based ceremony that is purely a ceremonial title which would have no legal standing. I told her that this would allow for equality and also allow those who are Gay and attend a church that supports Homosexuality to get the "marriage ceremony certificate" if a piece of paper is really what is important.

 

[liquor box]

Quite simply, in this day and age, I think that anyone who actively fights against gay marriage because it is against their personal beliefs, is an A grade fuckwit.

Gay Marriage affects nobody but the two people getting married. I don't think government should infringe on peoples civil liberties because some lobby groups don't like gay people.

I think anybody who does not fight for their beliefs is an A grade fuckwit. If you dont stand up for what you believe in then what is the point of being human and having the ability to decide what your beliefs are. Why are some beliefs so important that we should all sway to their superiority but others are considered tabboo? I support everyone who holds their opinion and will try to get their point of view across no matter what others say

 

[cyclopath]

I think anybody who does not fight for their beliefs is an A grade fuckwit. If you dont stand up for what you believe in then what is the point of being human and having the ability to decide what your beliefs are. Why are some beliefs so important that we should all sway to their superiority but others are considered tabboo? I support everyone who holds their opinion and will try to get their point of view across no matter what others say

Fully agree. What I find hard to reconcile is that I can't see how it changes anything for them , if gay people can have a recognised marriage. It doesn't change their rights, their situation one iota to let it be.

 

[ChargerWA]

This argument was always going to run out of steam, because the anti's position is based on a moral judgement which they are unable to use as the crux of the argument otherwise their bigotry would be clearly revealed.

They have to revert to the worn old arguments which have been disected and destroyed, like saying "I believe a marriage is between an man and a woman". Wtf does that even mean and clearly articulate to me why you believe that? You might as well say "I believe a marriage is between an apple and orange". It's just as redundant and arbitrary. Or just be honest and say "I believe a marriage is between a man and woman because I dislike gay people and am seeking to deny them equal rights to people I consider morally acceptable".

 

[matty_k]

No it isn't, how does not supporting Gay marriage have anything to do with a fear of Gay people?

Did you read the rest of my post?
It's a fear that allowing the gay and lesbian community the rights afforded everyone else will somehow tarnish what you have. And since it is purely based on their sexual orientation it is homophobic.

 

[Bowside]

I think anybody who does not fight for their beliefs is an A grade fuckwit. If you dont stand up for what you believe in then what is the point of being human and having the ability to decide what your beliefs are. Why are some beliefs so important that we should all sway to their superiority but others are considered tabboo? I support everyone who holds their opinion and will try to get their point of view across no matter what others say

It's great that people have beliefs, but that doesnt mean what they believe should apply to other people.

I'm a 'catholic', but I dont think that just because I'm a catholic, that everyone else should abstain from eating meat on fridays during lent, just because I do.

I'm not saying that churches should be forced to marry gay people, but I do think that gay people should be able to legally marry.

 

[RugbyFuture]

its just a fact that we're a secular society and therefore religious belief should have no affect on anything. religions don't have to do it, but it'll have nothing to do with them.

P.S Catholic

 

[Kangaroo Sausage]

I wonder if Southsider could answer something for me?

You have asserted throughout this thread that you have a right to believe as you choose, which i agree with. You believe that gay marriage is wrong. Thats fine, you are entitled to believe what you like. I presume that you also believe that all others should be also free to believe as they wish? So why do you feel that your own personal beliefs and morals should be enshrined in law?

 

[southsider]

I wonder if Southsider could answer something for me?

You have asserted throughout this thread that you have a right to believe as you choose, which i agree with. You believe that gay marriage is wrong. Thats fine, you are entitled to believe what you like. I presume that you also believe that all others should be also free to believe as they wish? So why do you feel that your own personal beliefs and morals should be enshrined in law?

enshrined aye, good word

well the simple answer is i think im right, hence why im arguing the point and like everyone else here who think their points are right and feel that their beliefs on this matter should be "enshrined in law" as you put it.

however if you were to ask me wether i thought my viewpoint will continue to be the one supported by governments in the future my answer would be no. Even though my view IS currently the law, i dont think it will last, i think gay marriage will become legal sooner rather than latter and at the end of the day i need to accept that, i may not like it or agree with it but living in a country like Australia means at least accepting the laws put down by our government

However i liked a post that somebody put down previous (had a quick glance put i couldnt find it) but suggested somthing along the lines of removing all legality from "marriages" and having all the legal/official stuff being done through a civil service with no religious ties and having a actually "marriage" ceremony as a added extra for religious people, because despite what several people have insinuated about my beliefs, i dont really believe in non-christian couples getting married either, multiple people have used the argument with me why is it ok for me to get married when im not religious but two guys cant and my answer is i really dont think it is. I dont see the point and it confuses me greatly when i go to a wedding and non christian people get married in a church or have prayers and stuff included in the ceremony.

 

[ChargerWA]

I don't understand why you still think religion has some sort of ownership on marriage?

The evidence is overwhelming that marriage predates christianity.

 

[southsider]

i just think the two are intertwined, im not disputing history, but like my really crappy analogy before (sorry still cant think of a better one) pasta was a japanese (i think :/) invention yet, because of the hundreds of years of association with italy it is now condsidered a italian food. i just think the same basic concept applies here.

 

[RugbyFuture]

some would say pasta has superseded being purely Italian and encompasses modern Australian, american and fusion cuisine though too.

 

[liquor box]

Did you read the rest of my post?
It's a fear that allowing the gay and lesbian community the rights afforded everyone else will somehow tarnish what you have. And since it is purely based on their sexual orientation it is homophobic.

do you really think this causes a fear? Sure it might make people uncomfortable, but to say it causes fear is a bit over the top, just as the use of words like Homophobic is over the top.

 

[liquor box]

I was raised catholic, went to a catholic school, was christened and baptised yet I still don't object to gay marriage.

Everyone in Australia should be entitled to equal rights, and marriage is one of those rights.

What about Brother and Sisters? Fathers and Daughters? Mothers and Sons? Adults and Children?

How do you decide what people are entitled to equal rights? Why should everyone have equal rights? It is ideal to think this should be the case but a society cant function where everyone is truely equal. There always has to be someone who has the power to posess more rights than others or you would not be able to have order in society.

 

[southsider]

some would say pasta has superseded being purely Italian and encompasses modern Australian, american and fusion cuisine though too.

you lost me at australian cuisine

 

[Braveheart81]

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

What about Brother and Sisters? Fathers and Daughters? Mothers and Sons? Adults and Children?

This is just as much of an argument against the marriage of a man and a women as it is against gay marriage. Which is an interesting discussion, but that needs to be outlined for clarity first.

How do you decide what people are entitled to equal rights?

I think you might be looking at it the wrong way. Everyone should start out with equal rights. But as soon as they infringe on someone else's "rights", they get removed from mainstream society. And how do we decide what rights people start out with? There have been some attempts. You can start here: http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Everyone has the right to live freely, to express their opinion, to get an education, not to be discriminated against ect... And as soon as another citizen infringes on these rights, that's when we decide they need to be "sin binned".

Why should everyone have equal rights? It is ideal to think this should be the case but a society cant function where everyone is truely equal. There always has to be someone who has the power to posess more rights than others or you would not be able to have order in society.

Well it's only fair if all citizens start off with equal rights, and we vigorously defend those rights. Not that this has anything to do with same sex marriage though.

 

[liquor box]

I like that, I think it could also be used for the overused word "Racism"

 

[Swat]

2)i would agrre with you that is a backward tradition except for the fact it explicitly says in the bible is between a man and a woman not a man and a man, even though socially i struggle with it abit if its in the book its in the book got to take the good with the bad

Maybe you should read the bible instead of looking at it like a software license, where you just scroll to the bottom and click 'agree'.

 

[TOCC]

What about Brother and Sisters? Fathers and Daughters? Mothers and Sons? Adults and Children?

How do you decide what people are entitled to equal rights? Why should everyone have equal rights? It is ideal to think this should be the case but a society cant function where everyone is truely equal. There always has to be someone who has the power to posess more rights than others or you would not be able to have order in society.

What is it you are exactly suggesting? I'm not sure this needs explaining.

Equal rights is about affording everyone the same civil liberties. People do not possess more rights then other, this is not a prerequisite of a civil society.

Equal rights grants people the right to voice their opinion freely without oppression. However equal rights also affords people the right to life without unjust persecution from others.

If ones action infringes on another's civil liberties or right to live life without oppression/fear etc, then there are laws to prosecute this and furthermore prevent this in the future...

Some people are empowered legally and constitutionally to enforce laws and protect civil liberties.. That doesn't mean they have anymore civil rights then the rest of us, they are still bound by the same laws.

However to refer this to the actual debate at hand, is society really going to collapse is gay people are allowed to get 'married'..... No