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Mining and the Greens

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sevenpointdropgoal

Larry Dwyer (12)
http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/01/03/lawrence-solomon-97-cooked-stats/

With 'scientists' like the ones described in the link making 'research' into climate change, no wonder there are so many skeptics.

Though it's worth noting that "scientific consensus" is largely irrelevant. The key is not whether some random biologist from Arse Fuck Technical University, Arizona, believes humans are influencing climate change, but whether the data being collected supports the current hypothesis.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Data can be used in many ways, and we need to know the basis and background of any user or usage to fully understand it.

Scientific consensus isn't relevant in the sense that scientists that are paid solely on the basis there is a climate change issue are self serving.

Who do we ask to advise us on climate change? Normally the guys that welfare depends on there being climate change! It is sure to skew a few results.
 

sevenpointdropgoal

Larry Dwyer (12)
Data can be used in many ways, and we need to know the basis and background of any user or usage to fully understand it.

Scientific consensus isn't relevant in the sense that scientists that are paid solely on the basis there is a climate change issue are self serving.

Who do we ask to advise us on climate change? Normally the guys that welfare depends on there being climate change! It is sure to skew a few results.

While the background of the user is important to be mindful of, this is important to separate the science of climate change from the political question of what should be done about it. To verify the data what you actually need to understand is the hypotheses, the method, and the results. The key to science is repeatability. What a scientist is paid, and who by is largely irrelevant if their procedure can be repeated and their results confirmed.

It's also important to realise that the climate data we have is not being collected by people paid to prove climate change. The people performing the research are not, for the most part, climate scientists - they are mathematicians, physicists, geologists, environmental specialists, chemists, oceanographers etc, and indeed it would be more beneficial to a scientists career to get repeatable results that conflict with current climate change models, than results that confirm it. Climate scientists, such as Tim Flannery, have largely made their crust publicizing other people's results. They could be accused of bias (and, indeed, frequently are), and on more than one occasion have used results later proven to have been unreproducible, and even downright dishonest. This doesn't change the weight of the data. That is testable, and unequivocal. You can either verify it, or you can't.

As I said before, one of the problems with talking about climate change is that the question of what to do about it, has become mixed with the question of whether it is happening. One is a political question, the other is not. Science is ill equipped to deal with the pressure of political questions, as it is not possible for it to give a truly definitive answer. A test can, in essence, only confirm or deny a specific hypotheses.

In this respect it is important to realize that opposition to the concept of climate change is almost entirely political. It is not that half the scientists out collecting data are returning with results that make it impossible to make a prediction, it's that people are specifically attempting, and largely failing, to pick holes in the theory and the data, so as to avoid a politically and economically unpalatable truth. We have far more data about climate change than we do about, say, the outer solar system, or, it could be argued, evolution, but we are still entertaining main stream opinions that suggest it isn't happening.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Great post SevenPDG.

Are you saying there are no true scientists that are arguing on the other side of the man made climate change debate?
 

sevenpointdropgoal

Larry Dwyer (12)
Great post SevenPDG.

Are you saying there are no true scientists that are arguing on the other side of the man made climate change debate?

Not at all. There are plenty. I am saying that the research isn't supporting their assertions. The data being collected overwhelmingly supports the human induced climate change hypothesis, and most of the scientists arguing against it are in a similar position to the climate scientists running around fanatically supporting it; they are, sometimes tenuously, interpreting existing data. I can't speak for everything, but the peer review system is extremely thorough, and on the available evidence there is a very convincing argument for climate change.

I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here, but anyway. As I see it there are three possible positions to take with regards to climate change. These are simplifications, but they illustrate the problem;

1) You accept the data, and accept that we need to do something to arrest the change. In doing this, given the probable causes, you accept that we will need to embrace wholesale changes, that are both politically poisonous, and economically damaging (at least in the short term). As it is very difficult to verify the success of a solution, you must also accept that we may need to react without reaching a social or political consensus.

2) You accept the data, but decide that the proposed courses of action will cause more disruption than the effects of climate change itself, and so you propose either no change, or a very gradual, natural switch to a greener society/economy. I feel, though others might not, that this is fairly easily dismissed, as the effects of the current data and models of future changes would result in wholesale changes to the earths climate which could threaten our capacity to feed the earth's human population, and may render whole populations, such as the 140 odd million people in Bangladesh, refugees. This must surely outweigh the economic disruption we might suffer with the change over.

3) You reject the data and modeling, and so the need to adopt measures to combat climate change.

In today's political landscape we have a majority of people who would identify with the first point, and a minority (of variable size depending on the polls) who agree with the third point. Polling would seem to indicate that there aren't too many people who support point two. So we have a situation where non believers are able to leverage differences between supporters of the first point to further there aims.

The climate change debate is an interesting test for the western democratic structure. Assuming we come to the majority consensus that something needs to be done about it, we are faced with the unenviable task of instituting a variety of very costly and disruptive measures to combat something that most of us, particularly if we are successful, might never be able to detect the effects of. We are actually, for the first time in human history, being asked to act truly preemptively. And because there is no way of unequivocally proving the best coarse of action, we will probably have to decide on, and stick to, a long term solution (or series of solutions) that stretches far beyond the normal political cycle, without ever having anything more than, say, 60% of the population in favor of it.

I suspect, with our capacity for complex situational environmental modeling improving by the day, it won't be the last time we are asked make a decision of this nature.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
There is a large 4th category. Those that neither accept or reject but feel it is better to do something than nothing.

It is difficult for people to decide without knowing the true end cost. I have serious concerns that with all the taxes this government are introducing effectively redistributing the wealth from upper and middle classes we will start to have a erosion of the middle class and end up with just haves and have nots. I am sure that some socialists (including some from Labors left) will use this and other taxes to further their agendas and that is a scary thought
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
There is a large 4th category. Those that neither accept or reject but feel it is better to do something than nothing.

It is difficult for people to decide without knowing the true end cost. I have serious concerns that with all the taxes this government are introducing effectively redistributing the wealth from upper and middle classes we will start to have a erosion of the middle class and end up with just haves and have nots. I am sure that some socialists (including some from Labors left) will use this and other taxes to further their agendas and that is a scary thought

I find this an interesting way of looking at the situation. The whole point of progressive taxation is to build the middle class, and minimise the have and have not's divide. A quick and simplistic look at American society shows the effects of more progressive taxation in building the middle class, as evident in the 50's, 60's and some of the 70's. As opposed to the less progressive taxation they have today which has created within America a somewhat haves and have nots situation. But then again America and Australia are very different societies so it is not totally applicable to our situation. Still, I am interested as to your reasoning.

What do you suggest doing about climate change scotty? Your criticism stems not so much from disbelief that it exist or that something needs to be done, but rather from your distrust of government and the influence of special interest groups. Which is fair enough, but what other options do we have?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Progressive taxation is being wiped out slowly by all the additional taxes by means testing and by benefits that only apply to some. We will effectively start to get a system where the lower income earners continue to pay low or no effective tax which means the ones just above will start feeling a larger brunt of the additional taxes. Extreme left governments seem to work best when the vast majority are dependents on the government.

Again I ask why we need means testing when the tax system already takes care of this?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
As to the other part of your post, did you see the article I linked in the other thread? Why damage ourselves possibly very significantly for no real gain? Ultimately if we are economically impaired by this tax then we will be less well placed to deal with future economic downturns and future climate change issues. Look at the states for an example, they are in a hopeless position with a complete inability to even swat a fly should it land on there doorstep. The carbon tax is just another in a line of financial pressures that this government wants to add to our economy. Wait for the banking super profit tax next.

So I would not be applying a carbon tax or a ets until the is commitment from the major players. In the meantime how is this for an idea:

Stop the nbn make it a fibre to node only. Net gain of around 40b
Levy a small mining tax but remove state royalties. Tax to cover all finite resources. Net gain 20b
Reform welfare system to remove dependents. Welfare accounts for something like 33% of the budget. Net gain 5b.

Take your 65b and invest it in green tech. Geothermal photovoltaic. Wave wind carbon conversion tech etc. I am sure this will ultimately lead to a much greater carbon output and put us in a very strong position that will only get stronger when the world commits.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
As to the other part of your post, did you see the article I linked in the other thread? Why damage ourselves possibly very significantly for no real gain? Ultimately if we are economically impaired by this tax then we will be less well placed to deal with future economic downturns and future climate change issues. Look at the states for an example, they are in a hopeless position with a complete inability to even swat a fly should it land on there doorstep. The carbon tax is just another in a line of financial pressures that this government wants to add to our economy. Wait for the banking super profit tax next.

So I would not be applying a carbon tax or a ets until the is commitment from the major players. In the meantime how is this for an idea:

Stop the nbn make it a fibre to node only. Net gain of around 40b
Levy a small mining tax but remove state royalties. Tax to cover all finite resources. Net gain 20b
Reform welfare system to remove dependents. Welfare accounts for something like 33% of the budget. Net gain 5b.

Take your 65b and invest it in green tech. Geothermal photovoltaic. Wave wind carbon conversion tech etc. I am sure this will ultimately lead to a much greater carbon output and put us in a very strong position that will only get stronger when the world commits.

Hard to argue with some of what you are saying. Im starting to change my tune a bit on the NBN after speaking to some techies latley. Although im still in favour of it on principal.

Mining tax originally intended to do away with state royalties before the miners/media/opposition forced the government to cave and we ended up with this bastardised tax we have now. Many economists agreed with the original dynamic tax, the only thing being critiqued was the rate. I'd like to see the mining tax money spent on a combination of green tech as well as also invested in the future fund/new industry. We are really gonna be up shit creek when the minerals run out.

I agree with your sentiments in regards to simplifying taxation, if that is what you are suggesting. Think there needs to be more open debate on the tax review. Also agree on principal with means testing, as otherwise you run the risk of middle class welfare. Lets face it mate, income tax isn't that crippling that james packer needs his baby bonus money.

I think you'll find the last budget had a raft of welfare reforms, decent savings aswell. I'm not sure what else they need to fix up.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
And I think you're breading fear in regards to banking super profits tax. I think the government might regulate further but I doubt we will see a "GREAT BIG TAX".
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Bowside, I wouldn't be too worried about our mineral wealth running out too soon. It's hard to wrap your head around how much we have of not just one or two, but nearly every base metal, bulk ore, precious metal and fuel. That's why I'm not too worried about Dutch Disease here.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Bowside, I wouldn't be too worried about our mineral wealth running out too soon. It's hard to wrap your head around how much we have of not just one or two, but nearly every base metal, bulk ore, precious metal and fuel. That's why I'm not too worried about Dutch Disease here.

We still need to develop other industries.

I'm interested as to what everyone's opinion is on the development of alternative fuels, not so much for green reasons, but rather so we have enough petroleum to continue to manufacture petroleum based polymer products. Could get a situation where plastics become very expensive in the future, which would really wreak havoc with the cost of living.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
We have other industries though. Mining only makes up about 6% of our GDP (down from 10% in 1900). There is a perception that all we do is dig things out of the ground and that just isn't true. Manufacturing is still about 10-12% according to the figures I've read recently. That isn't bad for a country that really doesn't have a lot of the necessary pre-conditions for a large manufacturing based economy (population density and proximity to export markets). In many ways, we are a post-industrial economy, where services make up the bulk of our GDP.

I'm in favour of the development of alternative fuels and we are reasonably well set up for that. We have massive amounts of natural and unconventional gas, which could act as a transition to non-hydrocarbon based fuels later.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Seven,

This guy has some credentials to comment in the area of man made climate change:

http://www.drroyspencer.com/2011/02/on-the-house-vote-to-defund-the-ipcc/

Worth the read. He seems to suggest the science is being twisted more on the IPCC side than any other:

Politicians formed the IPCC over 20 years ago with an endgame in mind: to regulate CO2 emissions. I know, because I witnessed some of the behind-the-scenes planning. It is not a scientific organization. It was organized to use the government-funded scientific research establishment to achieve policy goals.

Now, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. But when they are portrayed as representing unbiased science, that IS a bad thing. If anthropogenic global warming – and ocean ‘acidification’ (now there’s a biased and totally incorrect term) — ends up being largely a false alarm, those who have run the IPCC are out of a job. More on that later.

I don’t want to be misunderstood on this. IF we are destroying the planet with our fossil fuel burning, then something SHOULD be done about it.

But the climate science community has allowed itself to be used on this issue, and as a result, politicians, activists, and the media have successfully portrayed the biased science as settled.

The climate models are indeed great accomplishments. It’s what they are being used for that is suspect. A total of 23 models cover a wide range of warming estimates for our future, and yet there is no way to test them for what they are being used for! climate change predictions.

Virtually all of the models produce decadal time scale warming that exceeds what we have observed in the last 15 years. That fact has been known for years, but its publication in the peer reviewed literature continues to be blocked.

The truly objective scientist should be asking whether MORE, not less, atmospheric carbon dioxide is what we should be trying to achieve. There is more published real-world evidence for the benefits of more carbon dioxide, than for any damage caused by it. The benefits have been measured, and are real-world. The risks still remain theoretical.

Carbon dioxide is necessary for life on Earth. That it has been so successfully demonized with so little hard evidence is truly a testament to the scientific illiteracy of modern society. If humans were destroying CO2 — rather than creating more — imagine the outrage there would be at THAT!

And this from wiki:

Roy Spencer describes himself as a global warming optimist working to quantify Nature's thermostat.[15] In several articles Spencer has espoused opinions that are skeptical of the scientific opinion on climate change.
In 2006 Spencer criticized Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth saying, "For instance, Mr. Gore claims that the Earth is now warmer than it has been in thousands of years. Yet the latest National Academies of Science (NAS) report on the subject has now admitted that all we really know is that we are warmer now than we were during the last 400 years, which is mostly made up of the 'Little Ice Age.'" [16]

In a New York Post opinion column on February 26, 2007, Spencer wrote:

Contrary to popular accounts, very few scientists in the world - possibly none - have a sufficiently thorough, "big picture" understanding of the climate system to be relied upon for a prediction of the magnitude of global warming. To the public, we all might seem like experts, but the vast majority of us work on only a small portion of the problem.[17]

In an interview with conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh on February 28, 2007, Spencer stated that he doesn't believe "catastrophic manmade global warming" is occurring. He also criticized climate models, saying "The people that have built the climate models that predict global warming believe they have sufficient physics in those models to predict the future. I believe they don't. I believe the climate system, the weather as it is today in the real world shows a stability that they do not yet have in those climate models."[18] Roy Spencer is also included in a film that argues against the theory of man-made global warming called The Great Global Warming Swindle.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Wow, it seems this thread has become more about taxation than it has the response to climate change.

Seven Point Drop Goal, bless your cotton socks as finaly there is somebody out there that will discuss climate change without turning it into as political rant and focus on the science. Your two lengthy posts above put the whole climate change debate back on the level it should be discussed and in a language that most punters can understand.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Roy Spencer also runs the website that gives the monthly satellite temperature records, which I understand to be considered to be the most accurate available.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Wow, it seems this thread has become more about taxation than it has the response to climate change.

Seven Point Drop Goal, bless your cotton socks as finaly there is somebody out there that will discuss climate change without turning it into as political rant and focus on the science. Your two lengthy posts above put the whole climate change debate back on the level it should be discussed and in a language that most punters can understand.

I just posted an article from a respected scientist. Did you read it? Or does it only count if one side of the scientific argument is discussed?

This is exactly why it becomes a political discussion, because the IPCC is a political organisation.
 

sevenpointdropgoal

Larry Dwyer (12)
Seven,

This guy has some credentials to comment in the area of man made climate change:

http://www.drroyspencer.com/2011/02/on-the-house-vote-to-defund-the-ipcc/

Worth the read. He seems to suggest the science is being twisted more on the IPCC side than any other:

Spencer's science needs to be separated from his views on things like the peer review process and the structure of climate organisations. He is a member of the Heartland Institute, and a contributor to the George C. Marshall Institute, which are both conservative leaning lobby group that have voiced ideological opposition to various officially funded scientific organisations.

In fact, much of Spencer's commentary could be seen to be coloured by his political ideology. He is a vocal proponent of the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution in science classes, (which I find interestingly hypocritical considering his views on problems with the evidence for climate change - though he is entitled to his position), and has been a regular with various conservative media outlets (Rush Limbaugh has described him as the official climatologist of the Excellence in Broadcasting Network, which is a light-hearted organization he invokes to describe people who agree with him). Again these views are fine, but his comments need to be viewed accordingly - separating the science from the political opinion.

As for his statements about the IPCC; they are, in my opinion, problematic, but not unfounded. Again it is important to remember that much of his commentary here is as a think tank member, rather than as a university professor. In any case I am inclined to agree with at least some of his charges. The IPCC has made mistakes, the most memorable being the substitution of 2350 with 2035 in a report about the potential for catastrophic melting of the Himalayan glaciers, and there has been persistent criticism of aspects of the make up of the council, but the IPCC's review and publication system has been regularly subjected to independent investigation, most recently in September 2010, when the InterAcademy council report on the assessment process concluded that it was largely successful.

There is no doubt that the IPCC is influenced by external politics, and is subject to it's own set of internal divisions. Though it has been vetted by several independent groups, I would still describe their assessment process as flawed. It is even occasionally accused of being too conservative with it's predictions. None of these are criticisms that negate the quality of it's reports though, which must be approach with a balanced, critical, scientific eye.

It is also important to note that the IPCC is a review and advisory agency that undertakes no original research. Spencer can huff and puff about selective inclusion of research all he likes, at the end of the day he needs to engage the actual mechanism of climate change. Which brings us to the science.

Spencer's primary climate claim is to do with the problematic issue (in climate models, at least) of the effect of clouds in warming models. He used to make an argument about discrepancies between troposphere and surface temperature records, but that was quashed in 2005 when it turned out the data had been incorrectly collected (it wasn't he who collected it; the method had been faulty for years).

It's difficult to address his points here, as it would require a fairly extensive essay. I will say that;

Spencer is right about the difficulty in accounting for the effects of clouds in climate models. The evidence to support his assertion about cloud feedback are much more difficult to test. In his model he use a simplified box model - a uniform mixed ocean of ~50m in depth and standardized surface atmosphere. This is perfectly legitimate, and indeed is the norm in climate science.

He contends that the "alpha" values (the feedback in the system - it can be positive or negative, with positive numbers implying a stabilizing influence, and negative implying an acceleration of change) used by other scientists are wrong due to a faulty method of taking satellite readings, and in 2008 he submitted a paper for peer review that stated that the correct alpha value for clouds in his study was in the area of 6 W/m^2/°C, indicating very strong negative feedback in the short term. This inferred that increased cloud cover was actually having a causative effect on surface warming, rather than the other way around. The implication of this is that the planetary wide climate change we are currently recording can occur without human influence.

His alpha method reasoning is sound, but it has since been suggested that the overall figure is much closer to zero, and that his method produces a much less pronounced result if a more complex model is used, with ocean current and stratification taken into account. In addition some of his temperature predictions have not been supported by the evidence collected over the past 30 years.

Further studies about the southern oscillation index determined that it was difficult to verify Spencer's cause and effect hypotheses, and some have noted that with respect to El Nino, which Spencer has argued about vociferously, it would be seem that he is using a single figure from a previous study to justify his claims of a planet wide impact. Then in 2010, a further study suggested that Spencer had over estimated regression curves and oversimplified feedback mechanisms which had given him an inaccurate alpha reading, so though his mechanism for taking the alpha readings is sound, he was basing his assertions on a number that was inaccurate.

Finally, even he himself concedes that in long term feedback loops the value of alpha is probably close to 3.0 W/m^2/°C, which indicates a weakish positive feedback. Seeing as the predictive models, and indeed climate change itself, are long term, large scale events, this counters the view that clouds are having a causative effect on global warming.

There could be some mistakes in there... it's hard to proof read in this text box, and I am short of time atm.
 
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