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Northern Hemishpere Rugby 2013

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JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Allegedly details of the BT deal have been leaked

The BT deal has been leaked and it's not nice reading if you're an English rugby fan. Apparently, unless 4 or more tier 1 unions sign up to the new competition (which looks increasingly unlikely) the PRL get next to nothing, just the travel costs for the teams involved. Also, the deal for Premiership games is contingent on the new comp being formed, again with four or more tier 1 nations signed up, otherwise the rights for the league games will be worth less than they were when SKY had them. There is a bonus to be paid every year for the new competition, but this is again conditional on the four or more tier 1 unions being involved. So again, less than four and they get zero. So, the PRL has played it's hand and lost. The BT deal is predicated on the European Cup continuing as it was but under new management. The PRL have so alienated the other clubs through their mouthpieces on the BBC and on ESPNScrum, ( ESPN are FoxSports main rivals in America and Fox is of course owned by 21st Century Fox, formerly News International, who of course also own SKY, so they have a vested interest in destroying the ERC), that this is now highly unlikely. The IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR have all stated that none of their teams will be playing in this new tournament. Who else would be included? The South Africans are tied into the Super 15 until 2015. Do the English teams have that much time?

EDIT: Found some more details of this alleged leak on another website, even if it isn't true it makes interesting reading

"A few random musings:
Obviously in this litigious society no one should make statements in relation to other peoples private dealings without having proof. Therefore all we can do is make Hypothetical assumptions about what may be going on. Let's pretend an imagined employee of a national rugby union had seen a copy of the BT deal. He could then give hypothetical explanations to the following recent occurrences.
1) Why the PRL have been so vocal about trying to push their new European league on the rest of us and increasingly so as the deadline draws near.
2) Why the RFU have been so quiet about the whole matter.
3) The French clubs interest over an extended T14.
4) LNR representatives making references to “Contracts being signed” and “having to help the English from the mess they have created”.
5) And most importantly why no one has been shown a copy of the BT agreement except the RFU.

This imagined employee might say that the BT deal "Allegedly" states that:
1) The European pot is highly dependent on the number of tier 1 nation clubs taking part. Less than four nations and only travel costs for each team are paid. Only four and 50% is paid, 5 nation’s means 75% and all 6 are needed for the full 100%.
2) The European pot is for a “NEW” European cup of which the PRL, LNR and BT are the majority shareholders and control 60% of the vote,
3) The amount paid for the premier league is also highly dependent on the formation of a new PRL/LNR European Cup. The figure paid this year consists of a significant % of a “Signing on bonus” this applies to the first year only. For each successive year, a similar bonus exists dependent on the PRL having provided BT with a new European Cup. This is also graded according to the number of Tier 1 nations clubs involved, identical to the conditions above. Zero for less than 4, 75% for 5 etc. If PRL are not able to provide a new European Cup their league payments drop to a lower figure than the previous SKY deal.
4) The BT deal applies to all home games in England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland. The percentages offered to Scotland, Wales and Ireland as stated by PRL are correct. They however receive around 50% of the total pot and France receives the remainder. How can this be true? Why is the LNR share smaller than now and Italy have none.
5) The LNR have been offered a share of the pot equal to that of Wales, Scotland and Ireland but have also been given the right to negotiate their own TV deal of which PRL will receive, an equal percentage as the LNR receive from the BT deal. To legitimise this based on TV markets, the Italians are allowed (have to) negotiate their own TV deal.
What would this all mean? Yes the other nations would all make more money than they are now. The PRL clubs will however make substantially more money than the Celts. 50% of BT deal plus 11% of LNR deal compared to just 11% of the BT deal for the Celts. The French stand to make even more from a new deal due to the competition between Canal and a new competitor.
However if a new European Cup does not come about the PRL will receive no European money, even for a French/English league. They will also lose their bonus league payments leaving them worse off financially than they are now. By signing the deal they excluded themselves from taking part in any ERC competition, hence it’s all or nothing for them. The LNR have signed a contract for a new European CUP but it is also conditional on having four Tier one nation members before coming into affect. This provides them with the guarantees but it also means they are not prohibited from re-entering the ERC.
This would explain why the RFU are the only ones who have been shown the Deal, and why they have refused to come out against the clubs. Despite not being in favour of the PRL’s actions they now have no choice but to allow a new European Cup or else most of the premier clubs will be bankrupt in time for the World Cup.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
The solution I'd like to see, for next season, is the following:

- Pro12 stick with the HEC & ACC
- French Union strong arm their teams to come back to the table, Top 14 teams in the HEC & ACC
- English Prem teams refuse to take part. For one season only teams from the Championship take their place
- HEC Qualification along the lines that the English and French want. 1 guaranteed spot for each Pro12 nation (based on highest league placing), plus 2 more spots for highest placed team not already qualified. 2 additional spots for winners/winning nation of this years HEC and ACC
- TV revenue to be spit equally among the participating teams
- ACC still to contain Romanian, Spanish and Portuguese teams

If this came to pass I would be a very happy man. Give the English Premiership clubs a year on their own to think things over.

Also as an aside I'd like to see the Pro12 introduce their own cup. The Welsh could drop the Anglo/Welsh cup to make room in the fixtures list for it.

Additionally the Pro12 should be looking to bring in other unions so that a Pro12 2nd division can be created. This could include a few more Italian clubs along with Romanian, Spanish & Portuguese clubs. They could then round it out with clubs from other European nations who are interested, or the option would be available for the Scottish or Welsh to add teams.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Am I right to be thinking that there seems to be no upside for anyone in this?

The French could be the big winners, they could expand their league to the Top 16 and get a new bumper Qatari funded TV deal.

The English could be the big losers in the short run. Many of their clubs could go under, however if the RFU bail them out and take control they'll slowly move toward central contracts and that could be a massive benefit in the long run. Apparently the BT deal has various clauses built in one of which being if their is no European rugby that the domestic portion is less than they previously received.

The Celtalians situation is too close to call at this moment in time. They are mostly funded by international rugby and could probably adsorb the losses in income provided that they get a good sponsorship deal for the Pro 12 and get some Sky TV backed Pro 12 Cup/Interprovinal tournament (Irish Provincial Championship, Welsh Cup, 1872 Cup, Italian Cup) to fill in the free fixture weekends. They'll be free to trim the fat from their squads but will also lose some marquee players. I'm optimistic that the Pro12 can grow from this and we'll avoid a doomsday scenario.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
What I would like to see from the Heineken/ Amlin cup or whatever european tournaments replace it.

Still 24 teams in 6 groups of 4, 6 winners and 2 top runners up qualify for QFs. 20 teams in 5 groups of 4 with 5 winners and 3 RUs qualifying would take as long to play but would be less competitive.

The 24 teams in the Heineken are made up of the top six in each league and the two winners of the previous season's HC/ Amlin. The top six from the Rabo are made up of the top two Irish, top two welsh, top scots and top Italian teams in the league. That gets us to 20 teams.

The remaining four teams would be made up of the 2 next placed teams in the AP and T14 playing off with/ against the next four pro12 teams who are the next Welsh, Irish in the league and the remaining Scots and Italian sides.

These eight teams would play off as seeded, 1 v 8, 2 V 6, 3 V 7, 4 V 5. I would base the seedings on tries per game but it would be possible to come up with a cleverer more representative system I am sure. The winners of these games get into the HEC.

In this way, the leagues would be considerably more competitive in mid table and these lower ranked teams would get a nice little money spinner during the knock out stages of the rugby season. I would suggest the games should be played over two legs with aggregate score winning the tie, the higher ranked team would have the advantage of playing away first.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
PP I like the idea of the teams playing off but can you imagine the whining if Leinster placed 4th below Munster and Ulster then hockeyed the 8th placed time in the Aviva (as they did to Wasps this year)! The PRL won't agree on any qualification structure that has any more than the bare minimum of Celtic teams.

On a playing related note BOD, Heaslip and Kearney make their returns for Leinster this weekend, Bowe and Best are back for Ulster where Jaryd Payne takes the 13 jersey. Also Munster have POC back this weekend.

Hoping Ian Madigan gets 80 minutes at 10 for Leinster, with Cardiff playing their Welsh internationals on masse they are ripe to roll over and have their bellies tickled as is usually the case when the internationals are saving themselves for the November internationals.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
Am I right to be thinking that there seems to be no upside for anyone in this?

I actually don't think this will be that bad for any of the unions including the RFU. I have had a conspiracy theory all along that the RFU have been hoping an unequivocal response from the other five unions involved would preclude them needing to involve themselves in a nasty row with the clubs in the run up to the RWC.

If Wray (Saracens owner) doesn't get his way, which he won't as things stand, I expect him to chuck his toys spectacularly and flounce off into football ownership which would suit him considerably better IMHO. Maybe some of the other shyster owners will be on their way as well but most of the AP owners are rugby men who probably wouldn't mind getting back to the 'old farts' running things with a gentle nudge and a wink rather than Wray and Griffiths offensive, brash, arriviste commercialism which turns most real supporters off anyway.

I think that Saracens going bang will precipitate the RFU sitting down with the sensible clubs and working out what is needed, carrot (central funding) and stick (players not being picked from off shore). The RFU will be able to push for greater access to their players and greater numbers of English players in squads This will make the product more attractive and strengthen the white Orcs, the irony of the celts doing the dirty work for the RFU to strengthen the England team is a little bittersweet.

A year of keeping Irish supporters, who are by miles the most numerous travellers in the game, worldwide, at home, coupled with a Ranfurly shield type inter provincial competition (rights sold to Sky) should see the IRFU able to hold out. Sky take over coverage of the pro12 next year anyway and, locked in a serious battle with BT vision as they are, I am sure they will chuck a couple of million quid at the rabo sides/unions to keep them going as they grind BT down.

I hope the IRFU come out and clearly state that if any Irish players play in the RCC, their international careers will be over and they will not be waltzing back into one of the provinces to get their nice little tax rebate either. I suspect that very few Irish lads would countenance leaving the country when the game is involved in such a profoundly important struggle anyway. Even if they were thinking of leaving, they might think twice with a RWC coming up at the beginning of 2015/16. Doubtless someone will claim that is illegal but the famously long Irish memory does not necessarily pay a great deal of attention to the words of lawyers. At the end of the day these lads are in an extremely fortunate position relative to a lot of their compatriots and I think nearly all of them are aware of that.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
PP I like the idea of the teams playing off but can you imagine the whining if Leinster placed 4th below Munster and Ulster then hockeyed the 8th placed time in the Aviva (as they did to Wasps this year)! The PRL won't agree on any qualification structure that has any more than the bare minimum of Celtic teams.
Surely the PRL like competition!?!;)
 

Piquet

Frank Row (1)
PP,the problem with your suggestion would be if, say Leinster finished fourth in the league and then beat, say Ulster and Munster in the play-offs, they would have to qualify for the HC via the play-offs having won the Pro12.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
PP,the problem with your suggestion would be if, say Leinster finished fourth in the league and then beat, say Ulster and Munster in the play-offs, they would have to qualify for the HC via the play-offs having won the Pro12.

I'm sure in that scenario Leinster wouldn't mind thumping the 8th place finishers in the AP or Top14.

They would probably prefer the AP team though since they are by far the weakest of the 3 leagues in recent years.

It might not make much sense making the Pro12 champions play-off to qualify but the Irish teams tend to just roll their sleeves up and got on with the task at hand.

To maintain the prestige of the Pro12 the Champions could take the 1st spot assigned to their Union. So in your scenario Leinster would qualify and one of Munster and Ulster would have to go thump an English team.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
PP,the problem with your suggestion would be if, say Leinster finished fourth in the league and then beat, say Ulster and Munster in the play-offs, they would have to qualify for the HC via the play-offs having won the Pro12.

I think it would go on finished league position which wouldn't really worry me too much because I think a league of 12 teams should be won by the team who finishes top after 22 games, but then I am old fashioned like that!?! Welcome to Green and Gold BTW Piquet.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
Good wins for Leinster and Ulster last night. Ian Henderson has apparently picked up a nasty hand injury which could be a big blow from an Irish perspective. This was looking like it could have been his breakthrough season.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
2 very good wins but Henderson could be a big miss. He's the closest thing to Stephen Ferris to emerge from the new generation of players. While we have a huge dept of back row talent coming through, Henderson looks to be something very special.

Nice to see Bowe and Madigan among the tries and the returning Lions seemed to have good games.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Leigh Halfpenny is being linked with a move to Toulon to replace Wilkinson who is expected to retire at the end of the season.
 

JSRF10

Dick Tooth (41)
No one in the English press can comprehend that Leinster are a branch of the IRFU therefore they can't sign up to the Super Duper Rugby "Champions" Cup. The coverage of this whole affair in the UK press is an absolute joke
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
I saw Jeremy Guscott came out in favour of the clubs stance. He seems to think it will be all fine and hunky dorey and the clubs deserve to be able to maximise their profit. If it does go ahead I bet he's complaining about the situation regarding the English national team in a few years time.
 
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