NSW Schools Debating 2015

[aka_the_think]

In early 2014 an ambitious thread was launched on this forum. Not content with discussion of an athletic manner, while also disillusioned with the lack of scholastic allusions in political forums, this contributor resolved to create a new space where those interested in the rhetorical arts could discuss, banter, harangue and yes - you guessed it - debate school debating.

Though the forum got off to a slow start, it gradually earned notoriety, and perhaps even infamy, amongst school debating circles, and aliases of all kinds - representing schools from all over the place - began to pop up.

Results were conveyed efficiently, jokes were told heartily, and verdicts complained about occasionally.

The turn of the new year has seen a changing of the guard. The illustrious class of 2014 has stepped aside, moving onto bigger and better things, while a new breed of young rhetoricians wait in earnest as pre-season training camps build anticipation.

Consequently, the previous forum - which was designed to deal exclusively with the year 2014, and nothing else has become obsolete. Despite a significant rise in value, demand for a new forum has increased significantly - it is truly the veblen good of G&G.

Therefore it is with great pleasure that I provide a supply to meet the people's demand.

The primary aim of this forum - and I say this with all sincerity and without any irony - is to actually discuss debating, but banter will be tolerated, if not encouraged (but be respectful).

This year the thread hopes to build on the success it achieved last year - it'd be great to have more people involved across a larger spectrum of competitions/schools so that more results are posted and the speculation isn't limited to the same old crowd. And - contrary to the geographical prefix assigned to the forum's title - contributions and discussions from interstate will be accepted.

In 2015 we are sure to see the return of the usual crowd, as well as some new faces/pseudonyms. Because this forum's appeal goes beyond standard debating circles (I imagine) I will copy n paste the explanation/introduction attached to last year's forum:

"For the uninitiated, debating in NSW is a highly competitive affair, indeed it is probably the most competitive state/territory in the world, let alone Australia. There are a few main competitions that run throughout the year at a school level:

• ISDA (Independent Schools Debating Association) - ISDA is made up of 32 independent schools (as you probably figured). It is generally considered to be the most prestigious, and also the most difficult competition to win. It runs during terms 1 and 2, with competitions in all years from 5 - 12. At opens levels there are two tiers - Senior A and Senior B. Sydney Grammar is the reigning champion of the ISDA Senior A title, with an undefeated 2014.
• GPS (Great Public Schools) - Many would be familiar with the GPS, the 124 (odd) year old academic/sporting union between Sydney Grammar, Sydney Boys High School, St. Ignatius' College (Riverview), St. Joseph's College, Newington College, The Armidale School, The Kings School, The Scots College, and Sydney Church of England Grammar School (Shore). The GPS competition is an interesting competition, as it isn't the quantity of the teams that makes it difficult to win, but rather the quality of the teams - every team is strong (generally). Sydney Grammar is the reining champion of the Opens 1st competition, they were undefeated in 2014. This competition is contested in term 3.
• CAS (Combined Associated Schools) - The CAS, like the GPS, is a union between a number of well-know schools throughout NSW, including Cranbrook School, St. Aloysius' College, Waverley College, Trinity Grammar School, Knox Grammar School, and Barker College. Cranbrook won the competition in 2013, marking the first occasion they have done so outright. CAS debating runs in term 3.
• CSDA (Catholic Schools Debating Association - The CSDA competition is not a particularly prestigious competition, but it is one of the largest competitions in NSW with over 200 schools competing. Our Lady of Mercy College Parramatta will defend their title in 2014. This competition runs from the later stages of Term 1, through to the start of term 3 if teams make finals.
• CHS (Combined High School) - The CHS competition is very large, and is highly competitive. The Premier's Debating Challenge is the name given to the competition, which is administered by the Arts Unit, a department of the government that aims to provide arts-based opportunities to school-aged kids in the public education system. In the year 11 & 12 competition, Sydney Boys High School won in 2014. I honestly don't know when this competition runs, but it would be between terms 1 and 3.
• Archdale - The Archdale competition is administered by AHIGS (Association of Heads of Independent Girls Schools), with 21 schools in it, this competition is among the most competitive in NSW. The competition runs from the later stages of term 1, through to term 2. I am not sure who the reigning champion is in the Seniors.
• SDN (Schools Debating Network) - This is a small competition that runs in term 3 that includes St. Ignatius' College Riverview, Wenona School, Ravenswood School for Girls, Abbotsleigh School for Girls, Pymble Ladies College, Pittwater House, and Stella Maris.
• Friday Evening Debating - I honestly don't know much about this comp, other than the fact that it takes place on a Friday Evening.
• Eastside Debating Competition - Another comp I don't know too much about, other than that Sydney Grammar compete, and that it is mainly competed in by schools around the Eastern suburbs of Sydney.

Clearly there is an abundance of competitions in Sydney, and I am sure that there are many more that I haven't named.
In addition, there is a large amount of representative debating that takes place around Sydney, including fixtures between GPS, CAS, Archdale, and CHS merit representative teams.
Perhaps most importantly, there is a NSW-wide representative team, the aptly named NSW Schools Debating team, which has won the most Australian Schools Championships (out of all the states and territories) by a fair margin. Beyond that, there is an Australian Schools team, which competes at a World Schools Debating Championship, which, thankfully, Australia has won the most of, again by a fair margin.
On a side-note Sydney University are ranked number 1 in the world (out of all universities) and consistently perform well at World University Debating Championships, further reinforcing this idea that NSW is a strong debating state."

So, to get things started, does anyone have any predictions for any of the major comps? Or, perhaps preferably, any good pent up banter that's itching to be released?

 

[errybody_talks]

2015: Sydney Grammar will at last be knocked off their throne in a similar fashion to Joffrey Baratheon himself

 

[formerflanker]

Looking through the winners of The Premier's Debating Challenge for Years 7&8, and 9&10, it is interesting to see quite a few country schools top the competition. Not so many have been winners in the 11&12 category.
I was very impressed with the quality of coaching and judging/feedback at last year's 7&8 competition.
PS the GPS competition was run on Friday nights - is that the same as "Friday Evening Debating"?

 

[errybody_talks]

No, Friday Evening Debating is a B grade competition run in terms 1 and 2, whereas GPS runs in Term 3

 

[aka_the_think]

Looking through the winners of The Premier's Debating Challenge for Years 7&8, and 9&10, it is interesting to see quite a few country schools top the competition. Not so many have been winners in the 11&12 category.
I was very impressed with the quality of coaching and judging/feedback at last year's 7&8 competition.
PS the GPS competition was run on Friday nights - is that the same as "Friday Evening Debating"?

Most debating competitions run on Friday nights as far as I am aware so the name is quite strange as there's nothing particularly unique about being a "Friday Evening" comp.

I just had a cursory glance at the Premier's results, and the trend over time is that schools like Sydney Boys and Sydney Girls begin to dominate in more senior years. This would be due to coaching I imagine, though I can't say I have too much experience with this competition.

Smiths Hill from Wollongong have done very well in the Senior competition over the years, but it would be nice to see more of the schools/debaters winning in the younger years follow that trajectory.

2015: Sydney Grammar will at last be knocked off their throne in a similar fashion to Joffrey Baratheon himself

What makes you think that?

 

[behindtheshed]

No, Friday Evening Debating is a B grade competition run in terms 1 and 2, whereas GPS runs in Term 3

Friday Evening Debating, otherwise known as FED cup, is an informal competition not based in any schools association i that is, GPS and CAS schools participate, as do other independents both boys and girls. It seems open to almost anyone and I think the function is to provide extra experience and practice for any teams or debaters who need it.

I know of some schools who use Fed cup as a loose trial period where they can rotate speakers in and out and give newbies a bit of confidence; it's a chance to try out different combinations of speakers at different levels and build some experience with the impromptu format, especially in junior years where the primary school background would have been in prepared debates.

Each comp has its own style and structure and they really do vary enormously from each other. Inter-varsity is completely different again - anyone who has chanced upon it on a wet Sunday afternoon on Foxtel would struggle to identify it as debating compared to the quality of content, disciplined structure and polished style of senior school debaters.

I'd love to see some comment about Oratory on this thread. It seems that there are so few opportunities for public speaking compared with the vast number of debating comps out there.

 

[aka_the_think]

Friday Evening Debating, otherwise known as FED cup, is an informal competition not based in any schools association i that is, GPS and CAS schools participate, as do other independents both boys and girls. It seems open to almost anyone and I think the function is to provide extra experience and practice for any teams or debaters who need it.

There's nothing unique in this though, at least not to the extent that it's worth singling FED out. Lots of competitions like ISDA, SDN and the like are competitions not based on traditional school associations. I am not so sure that it's an "informal" competition either - it looks to be competitive and the people I know involved in it take it seriously.

Most schools that compete in this comp. also simultaneously compete in ISDA, so they normally put their 3rds and 4ths in (or "Bs" and "Cs" outside of Senior Years). A notable exception to this is Newington, who don't compete in ISDA, and they tend to approach it a little bit more informally with rotation and whatnot. This year they won the comp in the Senior A division.

[/quote]Inter-varsity is completely different again - anyone who has chanced upon it on a wet Sunday afternoon on Foxtel would struggle to identify it as debating compared to the quality of content, disciplined structure and polished style of senior school debaters.[/quote]

I actually have't encountered too much debating on television. I once saw an "Oxford Union debate" on A-Pac or something, and I remember the 2013 Easters was also on A-Pac, but that's about it. I also hope you're not suggesting that Senior debating is of a higher standard than uni debating - the content, style and structure of any decent uni debater is miles ahead of most senior debaters.

[/quote]I'd love to see some comment about Oratory on this thread.[/quote]


I'm sure once the season heats up there'll be a bit of chat about public speaking competitions.

[/quote]It seems that there are so few opportunities for public speaking compared with the vast number of debating comps out there.[/quote]

I'm not sure about this. Off the top of my head there are lots of competitions like the Australian Individual Debating and Public Speaking Championships, Plain English Speaking competition, Rostrum Voice of Youth, CSDA Public Speaking, Lawrence Campbell Oratory, Sydney Eisteddfod competitions, Legacy Junior Public speaking and lots of others. I think the big issue is that schools tend to be inconsistent in their internal promotion/participation in these comps.

 

[formerflanker]

I think the big issue is that schools tend to be inconsistent in their internal promotion/participation in these comps.



It seems that schools need the fortunate combination of enthusiastic teachers and students willing to do extra work, as debating is not usually part of normal extra-curricular activities. It requires additional hours by students and often the teachers too.

 

[Lee Grant]

• Friday Evening Debating - I honestly don't know much about this comp, other than the fact that it takes place on a Friday Evening.

Steady on aka_the-think.

Let's not make any wild assumptions.

Well, you did say banter was OK.

Carry on old chap - good luck with the thread.
.

 

[aka_the_think]

It seems that schools need the fortunate combination of enthusiastic teachers and students willing to do extra work, as debating is not usually part of normal extra-curricular activities. It requires additional hours by students and often the teachers too.

This is absolutely correct, though you can add resources (money) to the list of things schools need to have successful debating/oratory programs. Debating is by no means immune from the arms race that has gripped schoolboy rugby in recent years, as the same schools that tend to be hellbent on domination in the sporting arena are also equally concerned with developing a good reputation in the arts. After all, marketing is always easy when you can point to a few sports titles, a debating premiership or two and good HSC results.

Because of the above there's some pretty serious resources being pumped into debating by lots of schools, and coaching has become a critical component in the development of these programs. So really schools need enthusiastic teachers that know their way around the debating scene, talented students with initiative, and a robust, well-funded program with high level coaches.

Steady on aka_the-think.

Let's not make any wild assumptions.

Well, you did say banter was OK.

Carry on old chap - good luck with the thread.
.

Thanks Lee - I didn't want to make any bold conclusions about the competition, so I had to go with the clues the name gave me! I hope I haven't set a high standard for banter - perhaps you'll need to intervene soon to silence some brash ruffians.

The forum on this subject last year was pretty successful, and once the season actually begins I have a feeling things will heat up a little.

 

[Lee Grant]

Pardon my extreme ignorance "think" - there is a "season"?
.

 

[aka_the_think]

Pardon my extreme ignorance "think" - there is a "season"?
.

Well, in a loose sense yes. Most competitions and events run during term between terms 1 and 3, so holidays, and term 4 (for the most part) can be considered the "off-season", though this period could perhaps be thought of as the "pre-season".

The big competitions start early term 1, so once people start posting results and have evidence for their predictions things could get interesting.

 

[Lee Grant]

And, also from ignorance, what is the range of topics to talk for and against? Examples.

 

[aka_the_think]

And, also from ignorance, what is the range of topics to talk for and against? Examples.

There are normally a few different "divisions" when it comes to topics - primary (6 and below), junior (7 + 8), intermediate (9 + 10) and senior (11 + 12), though there's another step above senior level topics when you get to uni. Obviously the difficulty of the topics goes up as experience, intelligence and matury increases.

In most competitions/age levels debaters are given their topics an half an hour to an hour before, though at the start of the season a list of "topic areas" are released to assist preparation. These areas tend to be things like "sport", "education", "law and order", etc.

Primary topics are normally very hackneyed - things like "that we should wear uniforms", "that animals should be kept in zoos", etc. I once had "that pets are good"...

Senior topics have the most meat. Though I can't really remember any of the topics word for word, this year's GPS comp., by way of example, had topics like "That we should allow people to sell their organs", "That we should deregulate uni fees" and a debate about the situation in Ukraine. All of the above was worded in a much more sophisticated manner, but that's the main gist of it all.

In uni debating topics can be very interesting, but that's probably for another thread.

 

[Debanter]

Ladies and gentlemen, the time has arrived.


The following is some much needed conjecture about the approaching ISDA competition and the schools involved in the prestigious competition:


After the high profile departure of Sir James Stratton, Sydney Grammar appear to be in 'rebuilding' stage of their debating cycle.

The competition has now been left to a 3 horse race between, King's, Barker and SCEGGS Interestingly, the debating season will be kicked off in 2 weeks time at a charity debating cup at King's where the three powerhouses will battle it out. The competition appears to involve many ISDA schools and is somewhat of a 'trial match' between the big hitters of the competition.

With high profile youngsters from last season such as Matthew Bojanic and Viran Weerasekera , the Barker vs Kings debate appears to be the inevitable final. Appearances from other all time champs such as Imogen Harper of the NSW team are likely to be seen.

All in all, it seems to be the 'touch' encounter before the ISDA 'set' of the 2015 debating scrum. (Sorry for the tragic rugby metaphor, it seemed somewhat fitting.)

Intrigued as to everybody's thoughts on the upcoming competition.

 

[aka_the_think]

"The competition has now been left to a 3 horse race between, King's, Barker and SCEGGS".

Interesting that you discount 2010's winners Roseville and 2009's winners Scots. Also interesting that you include SCEGGS despite the fact that they don't compete in ISDA, unless of course you're referring to Redlands, who - I don't believe - have ever made it out of the pool stages in this particular age group.

Kings' and Barker are both strong, but I wouldn't be putting money on them to win any silverware this year.

"The debating season will be kicked off in 2 weeks time at a charity debating cup at King's where the three powerhouses will battle it out. The competition appears to involve many ISDA schools and is somewhat of a 'trial match' between the big hitters of the competition."

Can you please elaborate on this competition? What is it exactly? Who's involved? Etc.

If SCEGGS are competing then my money is on them, especially if Kings' and Barker are the only other chances.

"Intrigued as to everybody's thoughts on the upcoming competition."

Most of the competitions in this age group will be hard to call - ISDA, GPS, CAS, Archdale, and the like. There's certainly no stand out teams - at least not compared to previous years - and the standard is generally lower than previous years across the state (and apparently across the country too).

From my understand GPS, in particular, will be a close one with Grammar, Kings, Scots, Riverview and to some extent Shore and Joeys all fielding strong sides. High will always be strong.

Perhaps the best reflection of this "closeness" is the 6-way tie for the 2nds competition last year...

 

[Debanter]

"Interesting that you discount 2010's winners Roseville and 2009's winners Scots."

Both Scots 1sts and 2nds had 2 wins to 5 losses in the GPS season in 2014, their most recent results. Hence them being discounted.

Roseville's most recent results, Archdale, they made it to semis, but not past there, so there were 2 (potentially 3) better performing girls schools. Furthermore, as they Senior B competition in Archdale, I will refer to their Year 10's who didn't make it past the round stage of the competition. Hence them being discounted.

However, you raise an interesting point. I didn't mean to discount any teams, on purpose at least, the ones I named are merely the stand outs, in my opinion, of those I know have been invited, from what I know of the age group and what I have seen of a few of the teams.

"Also interesting that you include SCEGGS despite the fact that they don't compete in ISDA, unless of course you're referring to Redlands"

Firstly, just to clarify SCEGGS is Darlinghurst, SCECGS is Redlands. This can often be confusing with all the old branches of Darlinghurst (as well as Shore being SCEGS). Secondly, again to clarify, they indeed do not compete in ISDA but will be competing in this competition as far as I am aware.


"Kings' and Barker are both strong, but I wouldn't be putting money on them to win any silverware this year."

Could you clarify what information this opinion is formed on?

"Can you please elaborate on this competition? What is it exactly? Who's involved?"

From what I know, certain schools were invited to the event which is charity focused, and is to occur Wed 4th of February (Not 100% sure of this, others might confirm). I know of a few ISDA/Archdale/GPS schools that have been invited. I think that the teams consist of Year 12's only (maybe some Year 11's?) and is some sort of knockout structure. I think it is somewhat similar to the UNSW competition last year.

"If SCEGGS are competing then my money is on them, especially if Kings' and Barker are the only other chances."

I'm not sure of all the teams competing, these are just the two strongest of those I know of in my opinion, both of them consistently making the semi finals of ISDA, often semi final 3. Whilst neither has won, their results are more consistent than the winners. Also, King's 2015 year group have won GPS twice and Barker have a strong coaching network. But a very interesting point about SCEGGS, who, along with previous ISDA winners, are not to be overlooked.

"From my understand GPS, in particular, will be a close one with Grammar, Kings, Scots, Riverview and to some extent Shore and Joeys all fielding strong sides."

This is definitely true, though a new season can always mean team/coach changes and a complete shift in the usual standings, especially as the year of 2016 move into the senior competition, meaning some restructuring for a few schools as occurs most years.

Overall, interesting comments and I am keen to see how the competition plays out, should be a fairly decent indicator of the rest of the year.

 

[aka_the_think]

"Both Scots 1sts and 2nds had 2 wins to 5 losses in the GPS season in 2014, their most recent results. Hence them being discounted."

There's a few things to note here:
1. Scots only pick year 12s for the 1sts, so it makes no sense to conflate disappointing results in that team with their 2014 class' quality.
2. Until the 2nd last round of GPS the 2 best speakers in Year 11 at Scots were at the Harvard Summer School. They came back and knocked off both teams including a very strong Riverview team who would otherwise have won the comp. outright, albeit in interesting circumstances (their 3rd was out and a 4ths speaker was called up).
Scots also had the best win-loss ratio the last time the class of 2014 was together as a cohort, so they have a bit of momentum there.
I am not suggesting that Scots are the world's best team, but by this age group's standards they're strong, and are worth considering in any discussion about the top teams.

"Roseville's most recent results, Archdale, they made it to semis, but not past there, so there were 2 (potentially 3) better performing girls schools. Furthermore, as they Senior B competition in Archdale, I will refer to their Year 10's who didn't make it past the round stage of the competition. Hence them being discounted."

I think that that's completely fair. I don't know much about Roseville, but one thing worth noting is that schools often enter different teams into different comps, so the team competing in, say, Archdale might be better/worse than the team in ISDA. I know that they won SDN Senior A and B, but I am not sure what standard those teams were relative to their usual cohort.
I honestly don't really rate them very highly, but they have a decent CV that they can point to which makes them possible contenders.

Vis-a-vis SCEGGS, I apologise for misinterpreting what you suggested. I thought you were suggesting that they would be up there for the ISDA comp., which I found interesting haha. If they did compete in it I'd put them close to favourites.

"I know of a few ISDA/Archdale/GPS schools that have been invited."

Do you by any chance have a list? That'd be really handy.

It sounds like a great comp. and a solid initiative from Kings - it'll be interesting to see who wins, but it should be taken with a grain of salt due to small number of teams involved relative to other comps.

"Both of them consistently making the semi finals of ISDA, often semi final 3...Whilst neither has won, their results are more consistent than the winners. Also, King's 2015 year group have won GPS twice and Barker have a strong coaching network. But a very interesting point about SCEGGS, who, along with previous ISDA winners, are not to be overlooked."

Lots of teams consistently make these finals though. Riverview went one win from making the ISDA finals in year 7, year 8 and year 9, whilst schools like Aloys, Grammar, and Abbotsleigh are almost always in the finals mix. Consistent finals appearances do not, on their own, provide either of those teams with a unique advantage in this comp.

What's also worth noting is that ISDA can produce weird results. Scots, who I think I proved are a strong side, didn't make any finals in Senior A or B this year.

Kings' had the best win/loss ratios in year 9 (2012) and year 7 (2010). It is definitely worth noting that a few schools do not enter their top teams into GPS until a certain point, Riverview being a notable example (they enter their top team into SDN until Opens in term 3), which skews results. It is also worth noting that - in their last competition as a cohort - Kings lost 6 debates and won 1, a record that does not augur well for the future. This is especially true when you consider the lacklustre results of their firsts in 2014, which had two Year 11s in it. That said, I rate the 1st speaker that was in their 2nds, and was genuinely puzzled as to why he wasn't in the firsts. They are definitely a strong team, no doubt, but like most teams this year they are not unbeatable and their results are hardly "consistent".

Barker have gotten better in recent years in the 2014 age group, largely due to coaching, but their coaching isn't any better than schools like Scots, Grammar and MLC so it's not a unique competitive advantage. I have never been particularly impressed with them and their results, whilst not bad, are not amazing. I concede that they did well in ISDA in Year 10, but that year produced some strange results across the age group.

"This is definitely true, though a new season can always mean team/coach changes and a complete shift in the usual standings, especially as the year of 2016 move into the senior competition, meaning some restructuring for a few schools as occurs most years."

This is definitely true mate. There are always internal things going on at most schools that affect success. One thing that's been partially overlooked thus far in both of our analysis is the quality of individual speakers.

On that note, would it be possible to find out who each school has as their firsts/senior a coach? It's always interesting to look at the correlation between good debaters and strong schools.

 

[OneFourBrutus]

"Both Scots 1sts and 2nds had 2 wins to 5 losses in the GPS season in 2014, their most recent results. Hence them being discounted."

"1. Scots only pick year 12s for the 1sts, so it makes no sense to conflate disappointing results in that team with their 2014 class' quality."

"Scots also had the best win-loss ratio the last time the class of 2014 was together as a cohort, so they have a bit of momentum there."

Hey mate sorry to butt in, I'm not sure if you're confused or can't do maths, but it makes perfect sense to conflate the results of the 1sts with that of the 2014 class if they were all year twelves as...wait for it...last years year twelve were the class of 2014 and therefore those results reflect exactly the 2014 class. I wasn't sure if it was a typo, but you said it twice so thought I would clarify that for you (Just in case you aren't sure in future, the class year is whatever year they graduate)

Hope that helps sweetie xoxoxo <3

 

[aka_the_think]

Hey mate sorry to butt in, I'm not sure if you're confused or can't do maths, but it makes perfect sense to conflate the results of the 1sts with that of the 2014 class if they were all year twelves as.wait for it.last years year twelve were the class of 2014 and therefore those results reflect exactly the 2014 class. I wasn't sure if it was a typo, but you said it twice so thought I would clarify that for you (Just in case you aren't sure in future, the class year is whatever year they graduate)

Ahh yes, my bad - good spotting. 1.23am does not a coherent post make.

Substitute the references to "2014" with "2015" in that paragraph and you'll get what I meant to say.