Rebels 2015

[daz]

I'm not particularly happy with the wooden spoon either, but I take a bit more of a rounded view.

This is our 4th season of Super rugby, and we have had 3 coaches. We are turning over 30% of our team each year trying to find the right balance. We have no real local talent and we need to import some big names to make the team attractive to a market that is, putting it mildly, parochial to the local code. Sometimes it works, often it hasn't.

And just when we find a great foreign player that fits the team, due to the rules they bugger off after a few years. Some inter-state players get homesick, or realise that the grass isn't always greener from where they came from.

Sound familiar to another team that started up outside the traditional heartland?

Think on this: the Force took 8 seasons to get a chance to play finals footy.

It's not a disaster just yet, folks.

 

[KevinO]

Yeah, I think Mitch is playing the best rugby of his career so far.

I think Mitch was better last year Daz, would say the only players who have improved this season are Jones, Hegerty and Weeks.

Gone backwards: Pyle, Higgers, English, Fugistaller.

 

[Train Without a Station]

In 2011 the Rebels finished 15th with 3 wins.
In 2012 the Rebels finished 13th with 4 wins.
In 2013 the Rebels finished 12th with 5 wins.
In 2014 the Rebels are 15th with 4 wins with 1 game remaining but likely to finish on 4 wins.

I'm not sure how it is clearly not acceptable for a coach in their 1st season, to lose one game less than their most successful season ever.

There just seems to be some sort of delusions of grandeur that the Rebels are something much more than a new team that has historically been the cellar dweller they actually are. The fact of the matter is the competition is a lot stronger than it previously has been. In years gone by wins against the Force, the Brumbies and Waratahs have been easier to come by. The fact that this year those 3 are finals contenders and the Reds are the only team out of the race is a significant fact because 1 of your 4 wins have been against them.

I'm not trying to shit all over the Rebels here though, I'm just saying it seems an odd attitude to have that in his first season McGahan's 25% win ratio is consider unacceptable when it's basically the clubs historical average. Certainly I'd like to hope they're aiming for more and if there isn't an improvement to somewhere around 50% next year I doubt McGahan will still be around after that.

 

[Tex]

Re. the Higginbotham rumour, obviously it's conjecture and that's all this post is based on. Nothing more than a hypothetical, as I expect him to be skipper in 2015.

On one side of the coin:
It's utterly petulant for a senior player (the captain, no less) to blame the coach for a team's performance. At the end of the day, the players are the ones fucking up attacking lineouts time after time, dropping easy passes and running backline moves in no proximity to the gain line.

If a player has a problem with TT's hard-nosed approach to 'encouragement', then I'd suggest it is precisely that player's problem.

The player can either throw his toys out of the pram and leave, or, he can put his head down and keep working.

On the other side of the coin:
Where there's smoke there's fire. If a senior player (the captain, no less) is rumoured to be seeking an early exit from his contract based on a new coach's impact, then perhaps there's some serious discontent at Princes Park. It would possibly explain why there seems to be a serious funk in the playing group.

At the end of it all, it's TT's regime until otherwise stated and we as a club cannot abide by players who in any way undermine or fail to work with the coach.

A gem of wisdom from Sir Alex Ferguson to Tony Blair would be fairly applicable in this context:

Ferguson's recollection chimes with the passage in Blair's memoirs, in which he asked the Manchester United manager: "What would you do if your best player won't do what you want him to and just does his own thing?"

"Chuck him out of the team," Ferguson is said to have responded.


Ferguson himself recalls: "My answer was that the most important thing is control. The minute they threaten your control, you have to get rid of them. He did say he was having problems with Gordon [Brown] but he never asked me specifically what I thought he should do."

 

[daz]

I think Mitch was better last year Daz

Have to disagree there, Kevin. His intensity has had a sharper focus and he is less of a turnstile in defence.

The partnership with Tamati has been sensational and has really settled him as a centre player.

I think he is equal highest in tackles this year as well.

 

[en_force_er]

As an aside, the Force had blooded plenty more locals than we had at this stage of their development. Two of them are doing very well as starters currently (DHP and Longbottom).

How have we been consistently so low on the table, and yet blooded no locals? Our local pool is arguably better than theirs as well. If we'd been good and blooded no locals it would show there's method to the madness, but we haven't been. It's, in a word, ridiculous.

WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE! WHY HAVEN'T WE GIVEN ANY LOCALS A RUN.

 

[daz]

As an aside, the Force had blooded plenty more locals than we had at this stage of their development. Two of them are doing very well as starters currently (DHP and Longbottom).

How have we been consistently so low on the table, and yet blooded no locals? Our local pool is arguably better than theirs as well. If we'd been good and blooded no locals it would show there's method to the madness, but we haven't been. It's, in a word, ridiculous.

WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE! WHY HAVEN'T WE GIVEN ANY LOCALS A RUN.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the Rebels are using the NRC to see which local talent should be looked at a bit closer.

Not saying it's right or wrong, just what I think is the reason behind the lack of no-shows this year.

 

[Highlander35]

With the exception of the first paragraph en_force_er, you sounded like those People on Facebook that make me cringe. "Loyalty lies not in Victoria, but to third rate Sydneysiders"... *Shudder*

You are correct however. Hopefully the NRC allows a few boys an opportunity to show their stuff, and get picked up on some sort of Supplementary contract, rather than flying in injury replacements from all across the country.

 

[Moono75]

I'm not particularly happy with the wooden spoon either, but I take a bit more of a rounded view.

This is our 4th season of Super rugby, and we have had 3 coaches. We are turning over 30% of our team each year trying to find the right balance. We have no real local talent and we need to import some big names to make the team attractive to a market that is, putting it mildly, parochial to the local code. Sometimes it works, often it hasn't.

And just when we find a great foreign player that fits the team, due to the rules they bugger off after a few years. Some inter-state players get homesick, or realise that the grass isn't always greener from where they came from.

Sound familiar to another team that started up outside the traditional heartland?

Think on this: the Force took 8 seasons to get a chance to play finals footy.

It's not a disaster just yet, folks.

The trials and tribulations of playing in a non traditional rugby market.

I will point out though that whilst we haven't made the finals our record in years 2, 3 and 4 in the comp were as follows, and that was when we only played 13 games and only the top four teams qualified for the finals.

2007 - Played 13, Won 6, Draw 1, Lost 6
2008 - Played 13, Won 7, Lost 6
2009 - Played 13, Won 6, Draw 1, Lost 6

 

[Train Without a Station]

en_force_er that's a completely unfair comparison.

Perth has a strong SA ex-pat population and a much smaller AFL profile than Melbourne. There is only 2 teams not 9. DHL for example is an SA ex-pat so much more likely to continue on playing rugby.

The AFL profile in Melbourne makes it much harder. The amount of ex-pat Kiwis and Irish that play AFL are an indication of that. Due to that the battle for talent is much tighter.

But you also ignore that local talent has come through prior to 2011 and left due to no opportunity. Ben Tapuai, Tala Grey, Digby Ioane and Christian Leali'ifano are all Victorian raised who potentially could have been Rebels if the Rebels had been around in 2006.

Then you have to consider other circumstances. Moli Sooaemalelagi and Brendan Westney are two young and highly rated players that they would probably like to give some game time to. Unfortunately Moli tore his ACL in the pre-season and Brendan is currently unable to play due to an iron deficiency.

But also, the fact of the matter is, there just isn't a lot of outstanding talent running around that are showing they are up to the next level. Most of the best players in the Dewar Shield are NSW, QLD or NZ ex-pats who are past 25 and never looked like making it back home.

 

[swingpass]

Oh, by "narrow parameters", do you mean "not giving away a penalty every second play"?

Yes, how dare Tony impose that kind of dictatorial system.

no i mean kick it down the other end and let our massive defence smother them until they give away a penalty and we score.

dont worry, i have enough of a beef with higgers giving away penalties, getting carded for stupid/careless things and taking the tap kick against the clan when we had a numerical advantage; to not cut him any slack. my point is that despite trying to adapt to the new coach's playing style, he simply may not be able too and want to go somewhere else. i think hugh pyle probably made such a decision.

my major beef is that on field the team started so well but has regressed. less attack, the same porous defence and the same execution errors as last year. this may be a personnel problem but i can see little evidence of the coaching staff correcting it.

 

[daz]

my point is that despite trying to adapt to the new coach's playing style, he simply may not be able too and want to go somewhere else. i think hugh pyle probably made such a decision.

I think that is a bit unfair and a long bow to blame Tony for that. If Hugh wanted to carry on to the RWC but was unhappy at the Rebels he would have simply changed conference teams. He would have been snapped up by just about any team in the country.

But he didn't; he took a life opportunity to move to France.

I really don't think Tony damaged him so badly that he turned his back on an almost certain Wallaby career.

Don't get me wrong, I agree some players and coaches don't fit very well and it is possible Higgers and Tony are such a pair.

I'm not particularly wedded to Tony as Rebels coach, and if we repeat 2014 next year I'll be happy to sharpen the knives for you, but I do think blaming him and calling for his head after a year is a bit harsh.

Especially since when we started this year so well nearly every one of us thought he was the man.

 

[en_force_er]

With the exception of the first paragraph en_force_er, you sounded like those People on Facebook that make me cringe. "Loyalty lies not in Victoria, but to third rate Sydneysiders". *Shudder*

You are correct however. Hopefully the NRC allows a few boys an opportunity to show their stuff, and get picked up on some sort of Supplementary contract, rather than flying in injury replacements from all across the country.

There's an element of right to every wrong though I'm not going to argue in their fashion (or through their medium).

As far as the NRC reasoning goes, it's a good one honestly. But like I said, the Force found a way to make it happen. We're in our 4th year, it just isn't acceptable.

More reasoning more rational than the facebook folk bellow.

en_force_er that's a completely unfair comparison.

Perth has a strong SA ex-pat population and a much smaller AFL profile than Melbourne. There is only 2 teams not 9. DHL for example is an SA ex-pat so much more likely to continue on playing rugby.

The AFL profile in Melbourne makes it much harder. The amount of ex-pat Kiwis and Irish that play AFL are an indication of that. Due to that the battle for talent is much tighter.

But you also ignore that local talent has come through prior to 2011 and left due to no opportunity. Ben Tapuai, Tala Grey, Digby Ioane and Christian Leali'ifano are all Victorian raised who potentially could have been Rebels if the Rebels had been around in 2006.

Then you have to consider other circumstances. Moli Sooaemalelagi and Brendan Westney are two young and highly rated players that they would probably like to give some game time to. Unfortunately Moli tore his ACL in the pre-season and Brendan is currently unable to play due to an iron deficiency.

But also, the fact of the matter is, there just isn't a lot of outstanding talent running around that are showing they are up to the next level. Most of the best players in the Dewar Shield are NSW, QLD or NZ ex-pats who are past 25 and never looked like making it back home.

I respectfully disagree with your arguments.

We have a higher population and a higher rugby playing population. Also better performing junior teams and more Australian Schoolboys reps. These, and not our number of AFL teams, are what should the best guides to our number of potential local professional athletes.

We also have plenty of expats, certainly more of the pacific islander variety who are making up more and more of both rugby code's professional athletes. So I don't see how WA's South African population is a key factor at play (we also have plenty of those too).

Longbottom and DHP were nobodies when they were picked. Hell, this season we've granted injury cover contracts for both hooker and halfback (twice), both of which have sparingly played minutes. Was nobody Victorian worth of the experience?

I think you guys let them off easy, the Rebels are a well entrenched professional team in their 4th season (arguably 5th of running their operation) they've had plenty of time to create talent, they don't have to coincidentally happen upon it.

We're looking at 4 seasons with plenty of dead rubber games to fling caution to the wind, at least for 10 minutes of junk time off the bench.

 

[KevinO]

Especially since when we started this year so well nearly every one of us thought he was the man.

One game?

I don't count Pre-season form, we went to Perth and got smashed in our second game after making crazy changes to a side that beat the Cheetahs.

What we have lost:

• We had never lost in Perth before
• We had a good home record against Kiwi teams
• We where playing attractive rugby to watch, how many opposition fans said they at least enjoyed watching the Rebels play, now how many tune in?

Now? We play the most boring style of rugby, our own crowd does not even get behindus. We are last on the table and there is no light at the end of the tunnel for 2015. TT might be in his first year with the Rebels, but we all know he was hand balled by the ARU and has not done enough to inspire anyones confidence going forward.
Only thing Tony has to his name is the win at Suncorp, everything else has been no better than Hill.

Pyle didn't have a option to move to another Australian side, the release clause in his contract was for a overseas opportunity.

Have to disagree there, Kevin. His intensity has had a sharper focus and he is less of a turnstile in defence.

The partnership with Tamati has been sensational and has really settled him as a centre player.

I think he is equal highest in tackles this year as well.

His defense has improved, he has looked less threatening in attack all year. Last year he had a lot bigger impact on the game.

 

[swingpass]

I think that is a bit unfair and a long bow to blame Tony for that. If Hugh wanted to carry on to the RWC but was unhappy at the Rebels he would have simply changed conference teams. He would have been snapped up by just about any team in the country.

But he didn't; he took a life opportunity to move to France.

I really don't think Tony damaged him so badly that he turned his back on an almost certain Wallaby career.

Don't get me wrong, I agree some players and coaches don't fit very well and it is possible Higgers and Tony are such a pair.

I'm not particularly wedded to Tony as Rebels coach, and if we repeat 2014 next year I'll be happy to sharpen the knives for you, but I do think blaming him and calling for his head after a year is a bit harsh.

Especially since when we started this year so well nearly every one of us thought he was the man.

with pyle it may not have been the only consideration, but at the beginning of the season he was elevated to the leadership group, and then promptly dropped to the bench after announcing his overseas sojourn. perhaps the combination of TT and Link in his ear produced an early reappraisal of his options.

no i dont want to hang all the woes on Mcgahan (yet), like you i am prepared (just) to give him another year. but it may prove very, very costly for the franchise. i sincerely hope not. i just dont think the prospects look all that rosy, despite the re-signing of most of the playing group. objectively the only player on any other Australian team's radar was PAE, all the other top performers ie smith, weeks, jones, mcmahon are contracted till at least 2015. 2016 may be a massacre.

whatever way you look at it, it is hard to argue that on field the rebels are anywhere near as good as they were towards the latter half of 2013. KevinO has pretty much nailed the outsiders opinion.

 

[Highlander35]

I want 7 wins next year, and a win overseas. If TT can give me that, and improvement following it, I'll be happy.

Otherwise, it's been a shambolic appointment.

 

[KevinO]

I want 7 wins next year, and a win overseas. If TT can give me that, and improvement following it, I'll be happy.

Otherwise, it's been a shambolic appointment.

Well that's pretty much what I expected this year, we had the draw to do it as well.

Had chances to win overseas in NZ and enough disappointing games at home this year as well.

 

[I like to watch]

His defense has improved, he has looked less threatening in attack all year. Last year he had a lot bigger impact on the game.

No one down there looks more threatening in attack this year.
There is only one common denominator in the totality of the lack of their attack!

 

[oztimmay]

this off the Reds 2015 thread



Anyone know if this holds water?
he certainly plays a different game under Terrible Tony, but then so do most of the team.

Yep, I'm going to go with 'not buying this one'. My rambling theories include:

• It's well advertised he has business interests in Brisvegas, but he has a number of interests down here with big Mal. You only have to take a peek at some from of social media to see what he's up to in the cafe scene. He wold have someone managing his Cafe interests up there, so there would be no real need for him to be based up there to run them. Besides, where would he get the time with his busy Rugby commitments?
• Whilst he form may have dropped from the lofty standards of 2013, the standards of both Palu and McCalman have also increased in 2014. This makes getting a starting berth even harder.
• Can't see the Reds being any better for him to build his case for a RWC spot. Unless his for turns to complete shit, I think he's got a strong case to go to England. Versatility is the key when you have limited selections.
• Yep he may be having as clash of wills with TT in terms of style and play, but would he be doing this to higgers just to be a prick? TT woulds surely have a reason for higgers to adjust his game style. Many players have said that TT has got the best of out them, maybe higgers is still finding his way. Personally I think you push your cattle to play to their strengths whilst addressing their deficiencies. Not sure TT has got this totally right with higgers yet, so both will have work on this in the off-season.

I bet the pieman is reading this thread and already concocting some bullshit rumor story. I can't wait for Friday </sarcasm>

Edit: I should also point out that Higgers is probably only a Palu injury away from getting back in gold. With Palu's history of injury it's not too far fetched to think he won't be wearing more gold this year. He's been having a better year with injury, but with finals footy coming up and RC it's going to be brutal on his body.

 

[Forcefield]

Hang in there Rebels fans. I am pretty confident that in the next year or two you will start making a significant rise on the ladder.

A couple of reflections on being a lot time (long suffering) Force fan:

• It's no coincidence that the Force's best year also matches up with the highest number of local players in our squad. Check out:
  you know he will give 110% every time he takes the field. You can talk about your Tapuai's and Ioane's but remember a guy like Adam Wallace Harrison, who was great for the Reds in his final years, turned down offers from the Force for a return to Perth. Focus on the future not the past.
• What are your strengths? What are the Rebels all about? It kind of seems like TT came along and saw a problem (defence) and went about fixing it without paying homage to your strengths. What Foley has done well with the Force is taking our strengths (breakdown, ball retention) and sharpened it as a weapon. Admittedly not a brilliant weapon, but something around which a game can be built. I think the potential strength for you guys could be in a dynamite tight five. Need to clear up who the long term hooker will be though. Can you get Siliva Siliva back?
• Buying in players sucks but the beauty is you can see after a few years the guys who will invest in the team. Those guys plus the handful of local players you will have come through will be part of the Rebels renaissance.
• I know a lot of people are pretty crook with TT, but in this case you want a bit of stability. He's been able to recruit some great players (from Queensland). Keep the faith and wait and see what he can do with them.