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Rebutting the "RU is the Devil" arguments from League fanatics

Discussion in 'Everything Else' started by Karl, Feb 10, 2012.

  1. Karl Bill McLean (32)

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    Being somewhat disinterested in the history of sporting codes beyond very basic facts about their evolution, I have recently been given some edumacation by various League fanatics about the horrible way Rugby has treated League and apparently continues to do so, all over the world. I've gotten a little sick of the bleating and whining and accusations of perfidy and corruption and wanted to see if there was a clean and potted way to smack a few balls back over the fence when confronted with rants like the below:

    Is there context, defence or counter-attack that can be relatively easily mustered? I can't be bothered frankly becoming a Rugby historian, but I'd like to be able to have a few decent mortars to let fly when under sustained bombardment in the future.

    And gidday to the LU lurkers reading this :)
  2. Karl Bill McLean (32)

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    Another example.
    Disgraceful past - How long are you guys going to whine about the Vichyball regime? Lucky you don't carry this attitude over to the Germans and the Japanese isn't it. Or the Brits. The Dutch were pretty horrid a while back. Hmm, and the Spaniards. Mind you, there are a few skeletons in the Australian closet too. Best just stay indoors and pray. Wait.
    The difference is dumbarse is that for the most part, most of these parties have attempted to atone for at least part of their actions. This has been performed with apologies, reparations and compensation. Also, countries are expected to do malignant things when they serve the polity self-interest.

    RU however barely recognises what they have done wrong, and in some instances actually charge RL followers with accusations of petulance and holding grudges.

    Being told to 'get over vichy', with out even an apology and an attitude that we deserve it. This is is an event where there has been acknowledgement of stolen property, in financial terms it is now the largest amount of money NOT returned from theft during WWII.

    There is also allegations that an RL official was falsely accused of being a resistance member by the Vichy sports minister, who also happened to be the FFR president. This resulted in the death of said RL official.

    But I guess he 'deserved it'.

    Most of us here don't want an apology because we feel it ruined French RL, we want an apology because it was a cvnt act.

    Once again, the difference is dumbarse, these are ALL the cases of individual parties involved with RL, they are actions neither endorsed or condoned by RL as a whole.

    Salary Cap breaking clubs get punished by the authoritive RL body. RL players assaulting women get suspensions and bans. betting scandals, such as Tandy and Sean Long get punishment. Terry Newton got a 2 year ban for his drug abuse, even though he was mentally unstable and committed suicide in light of his ban.

    The banning of RL players was IRB policy, there is no higher authoritive body.

    RU specifically courted regimes such as Mussolini, Caucescu and aparthied South Africa, never once finding them ideologically incompatible or reprehensible. Only RL it found reprehensible for having the temirity to pay working class people.

    The ramifications of the Vichy France administration was judged by a french court to be intentionally damaging to the FRL for the sole purpose to benefit the FFR.

    These are actions performed and endorsed by RU as a body, not just UNPUNISHED acts by individual parties, and by default they are tacitly supported by RU supporters to this day.
  3. Rob42 Cyril Towers (30)

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    You're on a hiding to nothing there Karl. Leave them be and let them nurse that grudge - it's obviously become an integral part of their personality.
    AngrySeahorse likes this.
  4. suckerforred Chilla Wilson (44)

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    Really? I know my knowledge of the politics doesn't go back that far, but Rogers, Tiqui, Sailor? Was there a ban previously?

    And as to what happen in the 40's in France.. Yep governments (typed slowly) have appologised for the injustices that they have committed in the past. Mybe the RL people should take the lack of an appology up with the German & Italian governments. (Again typed slowly.)

    Agree with Rob42, you might be on a hiding to moting here.
  5. Karl Bill McLean (32)

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    Actually, what the French RU did in the 40's to RL in France in cahoots with the Vichy Government was pretty despicable from what I have read on it, but hey, they're French, and it was during a war. How long are you going to carry the chip? As I have pointed out:

    Any time one body splits off from another over ideological issues, there’s going to be acrimony and the incumbent body is going to take steps to protect its position from the newly emerged competitor. What do you think is going to happen? It’s the law of the jungle.
  6. wamberal David Codey (61)

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    Gee, you must be young. Rugby only went officially professional in 1995, before that year players were not supposed to receive money for playing. Of course many did. The corollary was of course that only "amateurs" could play the game, so league players were naturally banned from playing rugby.

    By the way, amateurism in sport has a long history. Even tennis, which is now the archetypal professional sport, used to be amateur at its highest levels, including all the big tournaments and the Davis Cup. The Olympic Games was only for amateurs.

    Some sports, like cricket, managed to allow amateurs to play against professionals. But most sports did not, so rugby was not particularly unusual in that respect.
    AngrySeahorse likes this.
  7. MajorlyRagerly Trevor Allan (34)

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    If you have time & effort to spend worrying & getting upset about Union vs League, then I suggest that you need to find some extra curricular activities.

    Take the high road & walk away. There are bigger things to spend your time thinking about, surely.
  8. suckerforred Chilla Wilson (44)

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    Thanks you have made me feel better, but no I am not that young. Understand the whole amateur / professional thing, and realise that they could not play RL and get paid at the same time as playing RU, not that you would anyway. I supose that I read it as saying 'if you have played RL at somepoint in time then you can not play RUat any point in time' directive from the IRB. I thought the 'directive' is was more - 'you can not be a professional RU player, therefore you can not be paid to play RU'. That is how we ended up with the 'shamateur' era with players being 'employed' by supporters of RU but perhaps not working a full time job. Could give you some interesting stories here.

    Has there been any RU player that have gone to RL and then come back? All the ones that I know went to RL, in the 'amateur' days, for the money and finished their playing careers there. There are then also the current examples that have been signed to RL contracts as juniors, played both, but have come back to RU. And I am sure that there are some out there that went the other way.

    Not stiring the pot but I did find something interesting the other day - RU colts is under 19 but RL colts id under 20. Can anyone confirm this? Just wondering if this is an area where we are leaking players, in that they go to league because they can still play colts rather then having to step up into the big leagues. But that is entirely another area of discussion.

    Sorry, wasn't trying to carry the chip. And yes the leaguies need to get rid of the chip as well. And yes I surpose what I was trying to get at was exactly what you said - there was a war on - so you really can't blame the current game for what has happened. I just didn't put is quite as elloquently as you. This goes for all of the slights that people throw at all sports - if it is in the past let go of it an move forward. If it is something that is currently happening, then fine have your piece to say and if you really don't like it, work towards changing it in a rational and legal manner.

    Personally I like the chocolate theory. I like dark chocolate, other people like milk chocolate, others like white chocolate, and still others will eat every thing that remotely resembles chocolate. The conclusion - it takes all kinds to fill this world and I am not going to shoot you for eating white chocolate just because I don't.
  9. Karl Bill McLean (32)

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    I'd just like some on point rebuttal material that I don't need a PhD to find.
  10. suckerforred Chilla Wilson (44)

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    Walk away. :D
  11. Karl Bill McLean (32)

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    I'm no good at that.
  12. Sully John Eales (66)

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    Rugby said that once you're a pro sportsman you can't become an amateur again. So they couldn't come back.

    Sent using Tapatalk on a very old phone
  13. suckerforred Chilla Wilson (44)

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    Thanks for that. Understand now.
  14. BPC Phil Hardcastle (33)

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    Walk away seems the best option. You can't argue with idiots.

    But if you really have to bat on: As I see it, the RL posters theory is that things done in past eras, in very different circumstances, by a handful of players/administraters is evidence of systemic wickedness in RU whereas contemporary evidence of uncountable incidents in RL is the result of a few individuals and not any failing in the RL administration as a whole. Suggest he read George Orwell's 1984 and consider the irony of his defence that only individuals fail, not the system and meditate on whether the system is responsible for the individual failings.

    Also, assuming he is Australian, ask him when he is going to offer personal apologies and reparations for years of racial abuse and government policies that denigrated the Aboriginal race. After all, it might have been in the past and in different eras, but he is as much a part of the modern Australian polity as you are a member of the worldwide RU community.

    Finally point out that aside the mentions about the Vichy regime and the banning of RL players (due to the amateur status as mentioned by others above), all that he has mentioned are allegations and innuendo and if he is going to make allegations, he bears the onus of proving things like " the education system being used to protect one code while using it to kill of another code" and that if he can't produce any evidence beyond a few anecedotes, he should shut the hell up.
    AngrySeahorse and suckerforred like this.
  15. Bullrush Jim Lenehan (48)

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    Not sure if this is what you're looking for Marc Ellis went to RL then came back. As did the great Va'ainga 'Inga the Winger' Tuigamala. John Kirwan played a season or two for the Warriors but I don't know if he finished his playing career there or not. He's obviously back in rugby now coaching.
  16. Schadenfreude John Solomon (38)

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    Hand them the conversation, then after they've made 6 points, inform them they now have to hand the conversation over so you can have a go. Make sure they retire 10m.
    Cutter, DrewB, AngrySeahorse and 2 others like this.
  17. wamberal David Codey (61)

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    There is no getting away from the fact that rugby has always been the establishment sport, it is the sport that is played in the "better" schools, the universities, the armed forces (in the UK) etc etc. This has of course been an advantage in its spread, it has also given the game an elitist image. (By the way, by "better" schools, I particularly mean the academically selective state schools, who typically prefer rugby as a school sport, compared to league).

    I grew up playing and liking both sports, went to a rugby playing high school (but would have played league if it had been on offer, because I was one of the rebellious kids), and it was not until I was in my twenties, working in finance in the city, that I came up against a rugby dinosaur, a GPS educated Gordon supporter who totally despised league. That was an eye-opener, up until then my work-mates in other companies had mostly been leaguies.

    It is easy to see why a league supporter might feel offended at some of the attitudes around the game of rugby. There are skeletons in the cupboard, for sure, some quite boorish behaviour by the game and its administrators and supporters, through the years.

    One example that irritates me still today, is that my club (Eastwood) refused to allow Michael Cleary to join well after he had retired from all sport, because he had switched to league. The guy was a triple international, for crying out aloud.
  18. I like to watch Simon Poidevin (60)

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    Brad Thorn wennt from Broncs to Saders.
    Mat Rogers also returned to Mungo
    Brett Papworth I am sure was eventually allowed to play lower grades for the Woods after years in the wilderness
  19. wamberal David Codey (61)

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    I am pretty sure that Pappy was not allowed back in, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for many of us who had been happy with amateurism for many years.
  20. AngrySeahorse Peter Sullivan (51)

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    I'd agree with others to walk away, best off to shrug ones shoulders & say something like "Well, you can live in the past & die in the past but personally I'd grow up, build a bridge & move on", then leave it there.

    ....but if you must fight I'd just talk about the Australian situation on how our sport was pilfered by League using $ & the irony that now RL complains about Aus RU doing the same in return. Another nice little verbal upset punch would be on ANZAC day, I like to point out to my more RL inclined mates (in retalliation, I never start it) that its funny RL makes such a big thing about ANZAC day given they didnt stop the RL comp in this country during the war which RU did. So I point out, RU men were fighting for their country & dying & you guys were playing footy. That one attacks RL's OTT machoness right in the gonads as it always gets the most angry response (but no logical come back I've noticed).

    I grew up watching both RL & RU, understood RL more than RU but after actually making an effort to understand RU I came to love it. If people are really so closed minded as to not give Rugby a go then its their loss. I'm glad I gave it go!

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