Reds 2015

[Gnostic]

We pissed away our depth to recruit a few stars in a big gamble (that hasn't paid off). We let players go that we developed and gave us good service in order for a few high profile players and some young talent that have impressed in inferior competitions. What for? To mask over an inept coach. Graham has got to go and those who employed him have to also. They may have done good work in the past with the brand but it is back in decline, the rot is taking hold and nothing fresh has been offered. Time for a new perspective at HQ and just maybe they can take the previous good work of other to the next level.

Link came in and built off the talent and vision Mooney left him. Graham comes in and pisses the development of the previous coach against the wall.

It is like the powers to be are plodding along like there is nothing wrong.

The longer this shit goes on the harder and longer it will be to get the Reds back to where they should be.

This.
Sustained success rarely is attributed to a single coach or management team. Each plays a role and hands on the refined system to a new and fresh perspective to refine. The only exception I can think of is Alex Ferguson and Deans. Exceptions are not the rule.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Its strange that people think that the results this year are surprising. The trajectory has been there since 2013. Nothing has changed, just the class that was 2010-2011 is fading and the real abilities of the current coaching set up is emerging. Injuries and extraneous excuses have been convenient to hide the trend.

That's true. But the class of 2017/18 is coming through. They just need proper guidance to ensure their full potential is realised.

 

[RedsHappy]

That's true. But the class of 2017/18 is coming through. They just need proper guidance to ensure their full potential is realised.

That also is true, in part.

However, the longer a poor Reds coaching group is permitted to evade its proper fate by an indulgent, in-denial and self-protecting QRU board the longer it will be before good young QLD players can, as you say, be well-guided, coached and encouraged and thus prosper in later years. And, further, with this evasion will come the incentive for some of those players to leave QLD for for superior personal and skills development environments.

The flip side of this point is to look back: since 2012/3, how many current Reds players have really developed in skills, intensity, effectiveness and confidence? I can think of only Slipper, partly Simmons (though lately he's fallen back), and QC (Quade Cooper)'s defensive skills.

Others like Genia and Tapuai have sadly gone in the other direction and the likes of CFS have (at best) stood still....and so on. (On a side but still related note, I fear the burden for Slipper of a Reds captaincy that is proving exceptionally difficult in a badly coached, routinely losing team is actually affecting his skills and freedom in open play. I hope the current nightmare situation won't wreck him for good.)

 

[cyclopath]

That also is true, in part.

However, the longer a poor Reds coaching group is permitted to evade its proper fate by an indulgent, in-denial and self-protecting QRU board the longer it will be before good young QLD players can, as you say, be well-guided, coached and encouraged and thus prosper in later years. And, further, with this evasion will come the incentive for some of those players to leave QLD for for superior personal and skills development environments.

The flip side of this point is to look back: since 2012/3, how many current Reds players have really developed in skills, intensity, effectiveness and confidence? I can think of only Slipper, partly Simmons (though lately he's fallen back), and QC (Quade Cooper)'s defensive skills.

Others like Genia and Tapuai have sadly gone in the other direction and the likes of CFS have (at best) stood still..and so on. (On a side but still related note, I fear the burden for Slipper of a Reds captaincy that is proving exceptionally difficult in a badly coached, routinely losing team is actually affecting his skills and freedom in open play. I hope the current nightmare situation won't wreck him for good.)

It's interesting to see the changes that a changed coaching structure / S&C and management bring to a squad. As McKenzie brought the best from many players that were arguably on an upward trajectory with Phil Mooney, so Graham seems to be dragging more than a few backwards. Granted, he has had an unenviable injury list at times, but the drop-off in form for many players has been alarming; you list them above.
As many Tahs fans witnessed so painfully over several seasons after McKenzie got them to a couple of finals, many players under-performed through poorly structured plans and poor attention to S&C. I think this latter factor, as Dave Dennis alluded to on the podcast last year, is underestimated. Witness the improved durability and performance of serially-injured players like Horne, TPN and Palu, not to mention the return of Dennis this year from a serious injury to quite dynamic form, let alone the ongoing improvement in stamina and impact for Skelton. This is not meant to be a Tahs chest-beating session, but the turnaround was stark in many players, and overall style, dynamism and confidence. For whatever reason, Graham does not have it. It's not all him, but it's enough "him" that the board must act. There are enough good players in the Reds' squad that they should be better. And you know me well enough to know this is not smugness from a Tahs' fan.

 

[Gnostic]

On the strength and conditioning subject I have wondered at the technical skills and consultants available to the franchises. When a player shows habitual injury issues (Horne) or is simply huge like Skelton they cannot be subjected to a one size fits all fitness regimen. I know no S&C coach would do that at this level, but very special attention needs to be paid to correct physiological issues in some players and to develop player like Skelton correctly so they don't blow out simply from size.

Remember the size fetish that Hickey/Foley had one year at the Tahs and the injury issues they had that year and the next.

 

[USARugger]

If any part of the Reds coaching group doesn't believe that top-notch/cutting edge/individualized/other adjectives S&C and aggressive management of injuries (with a focus on preventing them) is the literal heart and soul of any professional sports team (100x so for contact sports like Rugby).. we are well and truly fucked in that case.

Not to say that it is necessarily the case, but our injury records and apparent match fitness have become pretty appalling the last two seasons.

It was interesting for me to hear last year about the guys from the 49ers being brought in for 'Tahs S&C. I know that Rugby Union is still pretty immature in terms of professionalization as a sport, but I was always under the impression that a good amount of the progress made in Sports Medicine/S&C has come out of Australia (and South Africa, to a lesser degree) over the past decade or so.

I fear the burden for Slipper of a Reds captaincy that is proving exceptionally difficult in a badly coached, routinely losing team is actually affecting his skills and freedom in open play. I hope the current nightmare situation won't wreck him for good.)

That was the first post-match presser I've caught for the season (usually am either starting my day, the feed cuts out immediately after the last double-whistle, or I'm crying myself back to sleep - at least these days) and the look on Slipper's face throughout it made my stomach turn.

Obviously any captain isn't going to look his best after losing a match in an exhausting sport, but Slipper looked like a broken man when he first leaned in to that microphone.

 

[RedsHappy]

^^^ excellent posts above re criticality of top-class S&C specialist capability in rugby.

TOCC has written a number of good posts here re the mounting injury lists-based evidence from extended, multi-year data that the Reds in recent years have seriously lacked this.

Which is hardly surprising: we have, just as one example, picked an attack coach who very clearly is way out of his depth. Why would we then have the system-wide insight to get numerous other coaching positions in much better shape?

Generally, it's only excellent Head Coaches that have the capability and experience to design competent and well-balanced, holistic specialist coaching and S&C set-ups.

 

[cyclopath]

^^^ excellent posts above re criticality of top-class S&C specialist capability in rugby.

TOCC has written a number of good posts here re the mounting injury lists-based evidence from extended, multi-year data that the Reds in recent years have seriously lacked this.

Which is hardly surprising: we have, just as one example, picked an attack coach who very clearly is way out of his depth. Why would we then have the system-wide insight to get numerous other coaching positions in much better shape?

Generally, it's only excellent Head Coaches that have the capability and experience to design competent and well-balanced, holistic specialist coaching and S&C set-ups.

And admit, and move to remedy their mistakes. Witness Cheika admitting he got it wrong last year with set pieces being neglected (especially scrums which were player-coached) which seems to have been improved this year with Ledesma in a consulting role. Publically saying "I stuffed up" at least says you are willing to accept other opinions - contrast this to Graham's resolute, but largely understandable, sticking to his guns.

 

[USARugger]

I can't really agree that's it's understandable to stick to your guns when you've done nothing but shoot blanks from the moment you decided to unholster the things.

Unless your end-game is to come out looking like a headless chook.

Maybe we just need bigger guns? I mean, we're one arms-dealer in the squad away from a perfect season anyway.

As an aside, I don't envy any Head Coaches going down the stretch that get tasked with hiring S&C staff. It's a field that's become far more technical and at a pretty staggering pace over the last 5-10 years. I don't think there are too many people that are HC material at this level with serious backgrounds in physiology, kinesiology, sports medicine, etc.

Definitely makes a truly objective hire fairly difficult to pull off, especially if the pool of truly talented/experienced S&C staff available in Oz (that aren't locked down by other codes) is as small as some posts here over the past few months have seemed to indicate.

The granularity of the data that S&C staff have access to just from the GPS pods alone is absolutely unreal, and any team not incorporating all of those metrics into what (should already be) individualized exercise regimens is literally years behind at this point. And that's just one new dimension that's been thrown into the S&C mix recently, with plenty more to come.

There's a good reason S&C coaches are some of the highest payed staff at many top college football programs here. I think Alabama's Head of S&C is on something around 350-400k.

 

[cyclopath]

I can't really agree that's it's understandable to stick to your guns when you've done nothing but shoot blanks from the moment you decided to unholster the things.

Unless your end-game is to come out looking like a headless chook.

It's understandable that people will often refuse to accept the reality. Eating humble pie is not something most people do easily. Which was more my point. I've found in my work that being able to say to patients that you don't know the answer, while never easy, is often the smartest thing you say. Especially if the next words are about how you will find out! Our egos don't always like it!

 

[Scrubber2050]

I understand S&C in injury prevention particularly in hamstring and like - surely they have fuck all to do with knees broken bones and that type of injury- that must just be bad luck. Surely.

Happy to be corrected

 

[USARugger]

It's understandable that people will often refuse to accept the reality. Eating humble pie is not something most people do easily. Which was more my point. I've found in my work that being able to say to patients that you don't know the answer, while never easy, is often the smartest thing you say. Especially if the next words are about how you will find out! Our egos don't always like it!

Gotcha, I misinterpreted your original statement.

In my own line of work I have to say "I don't know" directly to the faces of well-paying clients often enough to make the average person vomit (with the same appendage of how we're going to find out). Thanks Google.

I guess after learning how to stomach it myself it's easy to lose perspective on why it's so hard for some people to do it. To be honest, it's caused me to largely lose patience/grow disdain towards folks who refuse to do it.

In my own short life experience to date I've found that swallowing your ego is the better decision 99.99% of the time.

 

[USARugger]

I understand S&C in injury prevention particularly in hamstring and like - surely they have fuck all to do with knees broken bones and that type of injury- that must just be bad luck. Surely.

Happy to be corrected

Even the likelihood of hard tissue injuries can be mitigated by tracking workload of a player (naturally you'll still have freak breaks - but that's exactly what they should be, freak incidents). We've had a startling number of soft tissue injuries and have looked relatively unfit as a squad multiple times over the past few seasons, which are the real issues.

The knee injuries you're thinking of all have a high correlation with fatigue brought on by workload. There's even a magical number (I think it's around 400 carries in a single season) where an NFL running back is far, far more likely to suffer a knee ligament injury the following year. Thankfully I can't remember ever seeing a Reds player actually break their kneecap in game, because that shit is pretty horrific to see most of the time.

Having one of, if not the, longest injury list of any franchise in Super Rugby by Round 5 for what is now going to be three seasons running.. that's a pretty damning figure.

Especially now with the ability to monitor the foot strike, G-Force, head motion and about a dozen other things that happen in the timeframe of a tackle on the basis of each individual player. The Irish squad even has it down to knowing what training situations certain players are more likely to get injured performing, and adjust their regimens to these individual standards.

I mean, you just don't take a Ferrari into the local auto-shop to get tuned up. Ever.

Athletes of Super Rugby/Test calibre, dealing with the inherent workload that comes just from the sheer length of the modern season, need this level of attention and individualization of their care to stop their bodies from breaking.

We're really starting to hit the point with all of this where these guys truly are pushing the physiological limits of their very much human bodies, and on a nearly daily basis - with little rest over the course of a year.. unless they break.

Not to discredit the old crew, but the impression I was given of them was that it was largely an internal promotion that probably should not have happened. We cannot afford to make the mistake of bringing in undercooked S&C staff just as much as we can't risk bringing on another dud coach.

 

[Gnostic]

I understand S&C in injury prevention particularly in hamstring and like - surely they have fuck all to do with knees broken bones and that type of injury- that must just be bad luck. Surely.

Happy to be corrected

In addition to the points of USA Rugger...

When an elite player plays against somebody not quiet at the same level I have always found anecdotally the rate of injury is increased. Probably in part because the less experienced individuals don't know how to mitigate injury risks in themselves and others.

 

[Brendan Hume]

Great points on S&C staffing. I can't understand why these things can't be managed with the assistance of the ARU, AIS and other such bodies. As rightly pointed out, sports science is rapidly evolving - I'd like to imagine the base level S&C programs could be done on a national basis with local management of individuals - better bang for buck, etc.


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[cyclopath]

Great points on S&C staffing. I can't understand why these things can't be managed with the assistance of the ARU, AIS and other such bodies. As rightly pointed out, sports science is rapidly evolving - I'd like to imagine the base level S&C programs could be done on a national basis with local management of individuals - better bang for buck, etc.


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Absolutely, and while we're at it, follow the Kiwi lead and get a centralised scrum coach set up.

 

[USARugger]

I was going to suggest some kind of unilateral system for tracking player management through the franchises and into the Wallabies camp (I honestly don't have a clue how this is currently handled) at the end of my last post.

Then I thought that if it isn't already in place I'm probably more likely to see New Zealand attempt to annex Antarctica first.

 

[RedsHappy]

Great points on S&C staffing. I can't understand why these things can't be managed with the assistance of the ARU, AIS and other such bodies. As rightly pointed out, sports science is rapidly evolving - I'd like to imagine the base level S&C programs could be done on a national basis with local management of individuals - better bang for buck, etc.




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Australia has enormous competencies in sports-related S&C capabilities, sports injury prevention, sports injury management, etc etc, it's one of the reasons we've done so well in global sports over many years.

However, to consider or infer that such a state of competence will somehow auto-transfer to rugby is mistaken. Australian rugby has in no way comprehensively professionalised its management, systems, coaching, specialised support etc in the same way as have, for example, cricket, swimming, AFL.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I understand S&C in injury prevention particularly in hamstring and like - surely they have fuck all to do with knees broken bones and that type of injury- that must just be bad luck. Surely.

Happy to be corrected

This is all good discussion but I agree, and therefore the big injury/unavailabilty list this year can't really be pinned on the s&c coaches can it?

Cooper, Tui, Holmes - broken bones
Simmons, injured with the Wallabies
JOC (James O'Connor) turned up less than fit from OS
Turner, Paia'una concussions
Horwill cut his hand
Hunt & Gill suspended

 

[Sully]

I pointed that out a couple of pages ago. No one seems to care.