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RUGBYS CULTURAL PROBLEM

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Public-School-Rugby-Fan

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Perception Is Reality! I wish to start a disgussion about the Australian Rugbys Perception problem. What do I mean buy that? I don't think anyone will dispute that Rugby Is preceived as a " Snobs, private school boys game". I don't agree but this is the preceived view of most MUNGOS/League fans aint it? Now we have only been pro since 1995 and I dont really think we as a game have really approached this problem.

Now Rugby In Wales and New Zealand is the every mans game so why cant it be the same here? Should the ARU etc start funding some public school programs. So guys and gals what do you reckon?
 
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Public-School-Rugby-Fan

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One thing I have done on a small scale for years is take mates who would class them selfs as leaguies to S14 and tests. I have convert or at least got them to being "DUAL CODE FANS". I regular invite friends over to watch big important games on tv at my place.
 

RugbyFuture

Lord Logo
slight difference in wales and nz, its not just now, its always been (mostly) mungoball never took off in wales because the governing body werent as strict as others on payments and im not sure about new zealand, there is a slight cultural problem, have to do more than invest in prgrams at public schools to do that, although this would help, major issues would most likely be media attention, a perfect representative however for this notion is TPN
 
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scrubber

Guest
Rugby many years ago was the "old school tie" system with only private schools and several major Brisbane clubs (brothers, gps, wests noths etc). Probably was elitist then.

However now many non-gps Tas schools now play rugby which opened the playing ranks further. Add to that the advent of local rugby clubs all over the state playing in their sat/Sun comps and the player base has widened extemely. Whilst that probably the gps system still has most of the talented boys many come from outside that system and the trials with CAS and CHS and GPS now make a difference.

It seems that IF you are a reasonable talent in non-gps then often selection in Qld 1 or 2 is made so that a cross representation is made and there is little perceived bias. the classic case in the last few years is Ben Daley.

Understand he attended All Saints on the Gold Coast. Played in Qld trials and played better than HIS team mates and was granted selection for higher honours. Whether he was better than opposing GPS prop is debatable but he was close enough to warrant his selection. Now he is an integral part of the Reds simply because of better coaches (and his work ethic as well). The only thing that pisses me is that every time Ben gets mentioned a mention is made of his old man playing league for Australia. The lad is now sufficiently advanced (his ability and solid performances for QLD) to stand on his own two feet.

Believe that the cultural barriers have generally been well and truly lowered (but not totally gone)
 

Baldric

Jim Clark (26)
Down in Melbourne it is a similar but different scenarion. The game is played mostly by the private schools of all sizes. Goverment schools dont play sport at school to any degree so those players play for the clubs. What is interesting is that between the clubs and the schools I would say that the whole spectrum of Melboyrne society is covered.
When the boys finish school they join a club and join the guys who have been playing club all their life.
The clubs cover the whole socio-economic spectrum and make it a truly egaliterian game down here.
We just need more numbers though
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
Baldric said:
Down in Melbourne it is a similar but different scenarion. The game is played mostly by the private schools of all sizes. Goverment schools dont play sport at school to any degree so those players play for the clubs. What is interesting is that between the clubs and the schools I would say that the whole spectrum of Melboyrne society is covered.
When the boys finish school they join a club and join the guys who have been playing club all their life.
The clubs cover the whole socio-economic spectrum and make it a truly egaliterian game down here.
We just need more numbers though

The trouble with the club system is numbers are capped. It's great that most clubs are fielding teams in most junior grades nowadays, but these kids were always going to play rugby. They come from rugby families.

The best way for expansion is to introduce it into more Victorian schools where 95% of the playing numbers would be made up of people with no previous interest in rugby. The schools that should be obviously targeted are the biggeer privet schools that would easily field teams (Caufield and Weasley Grammar) and then target some of the massive public/semi-public schools (Eummering College, Dandenong High, Hume Centeral Sec, ect). Other targets could be Hawthorn Sec (there is already a field on their school grounds) and maybe some of the very few schools that play league (Parade College, I think).

They should target 5 schools and make it a 5 year project. Then once the 5 years are up, select another 5 and so-on.

The Schools system is the only way to expand Vic rugby.
 

Baldric

Jim Clark (26)
They should target 5 schools and make it a 5 year project. Then once the 5 years are up, select another 5 and so-on.
That would almost make too much sense, but it would be the way to go. There has not been much lateral growth for some time now.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
Baldric said:
They should target 5 schools and make it a 5 year project. Then once the 5 years are up, select another 5 and so-on.
That would almost make too much sense, but it would be the way to go. There has not been much lateral growth for some time now.

Exactly, I mean individual programs in a non-rugby state like Victoria will have their ups and downs but the more programs you have the more chance you will have of Vic rugby being successful overall.

It's creating rugby as a viable sporting option in groups that it was never an option before. The numbers created through this will flow onto the Colts club scene then eventually to the seniors. Everyone would benefit.
 

Baldric

Jim Clark (26)
en_for_er, not knowing if you are involved with a school team, but the numbers of players jump in opens when the guys realise in yr 11 that they will not play first 18 and they jump over to rugby to have a crack at the first XV. If we could convince them earlier that they have no hope in football we could get them over to rugby earlier.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
Baldric said:
en_for_er, not knowing if you are involved with a school team, but the numbers of players jump in opens when the guys realise in yr 11 that they will not play first 18 and they jump over to rugby to have a crack at the first XV. If we could convince them earlier that they have no hope in football we could get them over to rugby earlier.

I am but I would say the exact opposite. Many blokes I deal with leave rugger to go play low level football, they enjoy the lack of training and "ruckus" that comes along with it. I suppose it's different at any school.

Still, schools rugby really is the way for a Vic rugby expansion. It may not have the quality of club rugby yet but the more schools that join up the more quality players will emerge from the schools system. The general coaching quality of schools rugby is also on the up.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
In Australia rugby union is an exclusive game whereas in NZ and the RSA it is inclusive. The trick is to change that in Oz.

Somebody in the thread mentioned elitism in our sport. Excuse me if I give it an historical perspective.

Rugby was exclusive at first. Englishmen who went to private shools (which the Poms call public schools) started up clubs to play the footie game they had played in their schooldays. The game played at the Rugby School emerged as the strongest and it adopted some of the rules used in other schools. Then there was the schism between what we call soccer in Oz, and rugby, which we need not go into here.

In the later parts of the 19th century the rugby toffs in the south became uneasy because the working class northern unions of England were dominating results. They didn't like the ruffians being able to get payments, or perks, either.

In 1893 the Rugby Union voted down a proposal to permit broken time payments to players who lost work after being injured playing rugby; so the northerners resolved to break away to form their own union. They did so two years later and the toffs were ecstatic to see the grubby workers go; they wanted to preserve their genteel middle class game.

Thus the Rugby League was born though it didn't take that name until later.

This was an historic example of exclusivity. As the game spread with various success to other parts of the empire, men in South Africa and New Zealand, regardless of class, took to the union game like ducks to water. To them the sport was inclusive.

This was not the case in Australia; the "Aussie Rules" game, as some of us call it now, grabbed the interest of the working man, especially in Victoria, and rugby as a code of football in Oz nearly died out. Sydney University had played the game internally in the 1860s and some other clubs started up to give them a match. As the Sydney suburbs expanded, so did the number of clubs and the rugby union sport took hold.

In the new century came the rugby league which poached most of the Wallaby team, then came WWI, when rugby union was disbanded and rugby union players and officials joined up to fight. The rugby league kept going and this helped them to establish their sport. The existence of rugby union became fragile once more and it nearly expired again, particularly in Queensland, where it didn't emerge again until 1928.

It was the private schools that kept the game going around WWI and it was incongruous that the two big Sydney Catholic rugby schools, Riverview (Jesuits) and St. Josephs (Marist Brothers), played a leading role. The irony was that the anti-war Church, heavily influenced by Irish clergy, was the champion of working men who gravitated to the rugby league game.

Private schools remain a solid base for our sport. Without them it would be just a novelty activity now.

We would all like our sport become inclusive - to be played more at state schools and to have greater numbers coming through the junior club system. Let's thumb our noses at elitism by all means, but let's not knock private school rugby; it's a mainstay of our sport.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
I'm sure Riverview and Joeys'd be grateful for your accolades here, Lee, but the schools which did the most in the late 19th and early 20th centuries to advance rugby's cause were Sydney's oldest GPS schools, King's, Grammar and Newington. In fact in the late 19th century both Riverview and Joeys first choice of football was the Victorian game. Riverview was founded in 1880, Joeys a year later, and it wasn't until 1895 they saw the light and converted to rugby. The bunfight over which football code to play in Sydney was a close run thing and for a while it looked like the Victorian game was going to be the dominant code.

Rugby at Grammar and Newington has seen better days due to the social mix of the boys currently attending, but up until the mid-60s they were very strong. As were Scots and High. The procession of Joeys, King's and Shore, with the odd squark from Riverview, has arisen only in the last 30 or so years.
 

Lee Grant

John Eales (66)
Staff member
Yeah you're right of course, but I was talking more around WWI, not earlier, and wanted to mention the incongruity of the 2 big Sydney Catholic schools supporting the game in that critical period, whereas the Church itself catered more to the working class folks who were principally rugby league followers.

It was a strange dichotomy that few people these days know about.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
Thanks for the perspective Lee and Lindo. You don't meet many fellas who lived through both periods any more.
 

wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
Rugby is played in a lot of State High Schools in Sydney, including most of the academically selective schools. However, the GPS system can offer inducements to good players from the CHS system to switch for their last couple of years.

Ironically, the advent of professionalism seems to have had the effect of promoting elitism, rather than reducing it.
 
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scrubber

Guest
Lee's post that private schools are the BASE of our sport is absolutely spot on the money.

The wider base is great also for the sport so that emerging players can be identified as well
 

RugbyFuture

Lord Logo
the thing over all of this is, that in the end if you look at codes overseas now, all impact codes are supported by elite education systems, so why doesnt it spread here? america and canada have gridiron supported by college football basically, even south africa and new zealand for ruby, rugby in japan. its just an abomination here that theres a lesser code that basically is able to control the idea of classism by itself.

whilst rugby is pretty close to exclusive to universities and private schools, it never goes on about being the rich persons sport etc. League likes to artificially generate this idea on its own. they're the ones who continually talk about being battlers, and how ray warren and jarryd hayne are battling to pay for their house, and have drinking and gamling problems. one of the reasons rugby cant impact a greater market share through the less well off socio economic groups, is because league is so good at talking itself up.
 
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Public-School-Rugby-Fan

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Finally Rugby Fan gets it! Rugby fans don't claim Rugby to be "the rich boys game". The other games by down talking or by claiming the moral high ground by saying they are the game of the working classes do by default make Rugby not the game of the of of "EVERYONE". Thats what I mean by a " RUGBYS PERCEPTION PROBLEM". Rugbys almost guilt by assoiation with the "PRECEIVED RICH BOYS GAME". I don't want to down talk the historical importance that the private schools and universitys have forever given to Rugby. The fact that the ever growing New Zealand, Polynesian and Southern Africa migration to our great country has helped bring Rugby to a broader base. In these countries Rugby just "is" the game they play. Can anyone really dispute that before the 1990's Australian Rugby was mostly played by the higher socio ecnomic families?

Most of the kids on the eastern seaboard have a oval ball of some sort. So they could play Rugby in their backyards or in the parks with their mates. You only need 12 or so kids to play a scrappy game if they wanted. But they don't. They Dont all have horses and really long mallets either, so they cant play "POLO". But our boys and girls could grab a footy a bunch of mates and go to the park and play RUGBY, but they don't. Outside of playing club on the weekends and (that only went for 3-4 months), when I was a lad I had to play "League style rules" in the back paddock or school playground with my non-union mates. So the question I ask again is how do we change this? My Grandad played Rugby in the parks and fields of Cardiff on top of his school Teams. The kiwi's do Im sure. I know Fijians play on the beach as well as all of our polynesian cousin so why cant it happen here. Is it lack of TV exposure, I think so. But is a whole lot more too.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Public-School-Rugby-Fan said:
Perception Is Reality! I wish to start a disgussion about the Australian Rugbys Perception problem. What do I mean buy that? I don't think anyone will dispute that Rugby Is preceived as a " Snobs, private school boys game". I don't agree but this is the preceived view of most MUNGOS/League fans aint it?
Find this very interesting. Rugby is a brutal physical type of sport and it dont fit in the snob catagory around here.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Paarl - yes it is a brutal physical sport, but its the divide created by rugby league (i.e. paying players for their time and illness) that is the difference in Australia.

But, like South Africa, the power is within the selective (private) schools who have the money to employ coaches and build facilities to make their teams the best.
 
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