RWC - Wallabies v Ireland - 17th September 2011

I think you'll find almost all of us on GAGR are the same but it's the fair weather followers that bugger off after a couple of losses. Mainly because of the competition from the other codes and that we're the thrird or fourth most popular 'football' game in the country.

Out of interest, what's the split like in Ireland between rugby, GAA sports and soccer? When I was there I had the impression rugby and GAA were about equal (taking into account regional differences in support for hurling and the other one (?)) and soccer was somewhere behind.

WTF! On what basis are you asserting that any Wallaby supported is deserting his country? That comment is simply asinine.

Paul Cully's analysis has been excellent. The G&GR articles are always great.

I think it's a case that most of us probably read a lot of rugby journalism, particularly at RWC time and a fair amount of that is crap.

It's like when you have good beer and bad beer in the fridge. You'll drink the good beer first, but when you run out, you'll still end up drinking the crap beer.

Two different reference points but I think they illustrate the issues in Ireland.

% Watching

Gaelic Football 34%
Hurling 23%
Soccer 16%
Rugby 8%

Playing numbers - registered rugby players 153,000

As a result we don't expect our team to dominate. It's great if they are competitive. And it's fxxxing fantastic if they are successful.

Excuse me!

Have you heard of Barbarian?

Did you read his letter?

Asinine my ARSE

I am old enough to remember 1979 and the clips of our our last win in Australia.

As I mentioned in an earlier post on this occasion a win against Australia in a pool match is pretty meaningless unless backed up in the forthcoming games.

I have no tabloid observations to make.

I just hope that a team that I respect and admire for the style of rugby they play go well in this RWC and that inlcudes winning it. There could be no better advertisement for my 11 year old son than showing him successful Australian rugby at its best (apart from an Irish RWC win!!)

Ha! So, did you struggle to grasp that he wrote such a note in drunken disappointment? And that's your "Exhibit 1".

But, please go on. Cite any evidence you have that any Wallaby supporter, incl. Barbarian is "deserting his country." Any non-juvenile response will be appreciated by this G&GR forum.

I did not intend my post to appear juvenile. If you read the complimentary comments to Barbarians letter then, from your perspective, you have to deduce that it's all a drunken blackout. Barbarian disowns his team. He defiles his country in doing so. Many agree with him.

I do not.

Whether my team stand or fall, whether the result is fair or foul, I stand behind them.

In 40 years of following my team i have never, ever threatened to stop supporting.

That is not asinine.

Good night.

Find me one quote from Barbas article in which he "disowns his team" and how the hell does someone loosing faith in their national team equate to defiling a country.

I'm not sure if you are actually genuine or your constant use of hyperbole is distorting what you are trying to say..

I did say goodnight. I accept the challenge, I reread the letter.

The quote is "So in conclusion I am out. Out."

You can have a semantics war. Barbarian may be the nicest guy on the planet. But, I do not have an agenda. Take the letter in context.

If you dont then delete all drunken posts and move on.

probably this part swat
"So in conclusion I am out. Out. I will cheer for you as you put the USA and Russia to the sword, but you have largely lost any faith I have in you"

while i can sympathize and understand barbarians feeling after the game > hell i had a few drinks and swore i was sick of some of the pathetic performances we've seen the last few years >
i do feel that by posting this letter on the front page it has done gagr a great disservice in relations with the wallabies> noones to blame as anyone who had access to a few drinks and and subsequent access to a website like this would have done the same after that debarkle>>
we jus gotta be careful as stuff like this hurts the team> and despite how angry we get we gotta remember to always act in the best intrests of the team

I threw myself off my balcony after the game I was that upset.

Luckily I'm on the ground floor so I escaped unscathed.

I think its more a case out i'm out meaning he's not going to emotionally invest in the team as much anymore, not him disowning his team

Too right Langthorne (good to see you back btw). Doubly so when you realise how the ARU in every press release and in defence of RD's reign issues the line that 'hooray: we've gone from IRB rank 5 when RD arrived to now (2011) rank 2'.

Ummm, it ain't that simple folks, and the above gloss is misleading. Why?. Well via http://www.irb.com/rankings/analysis/index.html you can readily go and trace back historical IRB rank standings at even month-by-month points going back years. From early 2007 to late June 2007 (i.e. the late Connolly period) we were ranked 3. Then, via some rank-building wins, we went to rank 2 from mid-June 2007 right through the QF loss in October 2007 when we then dropped to 5. And you drop fast with mediocre RWC results as these RWC results (and only these results once every 4 years) count as double points, so teams take a disproportionate hit from a poor RWC, and gain just as much from a good one.

So towards the end of Connolly's period we had solidly hit rank 2, the QF RWC loss was the sole event in 2007 to drop us to 5. Thus, it's quite misleading to imply, as does the ARU and the Deans' cheerleaders that 'Robbie's taken us from this awful low of 5 back to 2, what a huge achievement'. If you take a more balanced perspective, more accurate is to state that, over the 2007-2011 period the Wallabies went from a 2007 base of around ranking 2-3 (though 2 was the then peak pre-WC when there was no RD around) then lost a RWC QF (thus dropping hard in rankings coming into 2008), and today in 2011 we are back at 2, now fallen to 3 via RWC pool game loss (and we'll likely fall to 5 again if we get to and lose a QF).

And, as Langthorne says, there's many calculation elements in the complex IRB rankings system (see: http://www.irb.com/rankings/explain/index.html) that could be objectively debated.

I will accept that as a reasonable and rational intrepretation.

I took a different one. Agree to differ. I did not come on this site to annoy or provoke, the 53 pages of comments were good to read and I look forward to coming back.

"Headless John"

You have a lot of players. Why do you not expect your team to dominate?
According to the IRB your 153 000 registered players is more than NZ's 137 000. You have around 25500 senior men, we have around 27500 senior men, Aussie has 39980. Its not merely a numbers game.

I for one can understand what John the Baptist has to say. He seems a reasonable bloke to me. Defiling is a strong word but I see his point.

The way I see it, for what its worth :

The Irish outplayed us fair and square (almost everybody acknowledges this which is great).
We didn’t turn up.
We were not arrogant in thinking that we should beat Ireland only in thinking that we could by phoning it in.
I was as desperately disappointed by our loss as barbarian and swore to myself that my obsession with the whole bloody thing was unhealthy. I swore I would not be back, on this site or any other talking about the rugby, and that I would shed my masochistic tendencies and pay more attention to my lovely partner and the kids.
Of course I am back. And have read word for word the entire thread as well as the hate vibe one. Does this reflect well on me? Probably not, though part of me would like to think that the best attribute of a rugby fan is the love of the game, not just that your team wins. I am still fascinated by the outcome of games that don’t involve the wobbs, France v Abs for example.
Barbarians post was a reflection of his despair. The only quibble I had with it was that it used language that could have been interpreted as abusive of the Irish. This was unfortunate though I firmly believe was not the intent.
I think st john is right though – barbarian did suggest that he was out and never coming back – I shared his pain, as many of us did, though perhaps not so overtly.


It strikes me that the biggest issue of all is our (read ‘human’) propensity to become over-identified with our team and their performance. Believe me I know; this comes from a bloke who has been known to cry at Wallabies games. (If any of you are golf fans and lived through the Norman years you will know what I mean).

I think we need to be able retain the capacity to take a breath, pull our heads in etc. We love rugby. We love the Wallabies. I have been watching them since the late seventies – was at the semi final at Concord in 87, saw the 91 team smash the Poms and then the Blacks (remember Edgo stealing the ball out of Kirwan’s hands and running away for a try? I kid you not tears ran down my cheeks). Saw Gregan knock the ball out of Wilson’s hands, was at the 2000 game at ANZ when we lost in the last few mins in front of 100,000. I do not enjoy watching any other game as much as I enjoy watching rugby. But guess what? I don’t own it. None of us own it although we often engage in the fantasy that we do.

When our kids do something stupid one of our primary responses (usually unconscious) it is to feel ashamed. This is simply because they are identified with us – ie their poor behaviour (in sporting terms playing poorly and losing) reflects badly on us.
We feel let down. We can get defensive. We have a right to – to a certain extent.

Sully has it right when he reflects that the growing anti-aus element in kiwi is due to our status as the greatest perceived threat to the ABs winning the cup. Think how long it is since they won – think how identified they are with their rugby team – which is often why they win so much – they cant afford to lose – we can; much more than them. This is a blessing and a curse. There isn’t nearly as much national despair when we lose – possibly a consequence of the sporting public being much more divided in this country than in NZ ie league, afl, soccer, union. I for one think this is a healthy thing even though I have often entertained the fantasy that league will roll over and die and all their hard men will come and play for us. (Imagine that – we’d win all the bloody time).

When the stakes are raised and the tension is escalated by the enormity of the prize, we run the risk of losing control – letting barracking become abuse. Chuck in booze, and the reports coming out of NZ don’t surprise me at all.

Sorry for length of post. Go Wobbs. Go Ireland particularly when you come up against the Poms.

Barbar's letter certainly reflected how I felt, other than the Irish part which was unfair to the Irish team's superb game and their standing in world rugby. Having said that in my heart I agreed with the synthesis of it. If the Wallabies were the all conquering team we hoped and believed they were, then to lose to a team ranked 8th who's had a series of poor games is a major gap in performance. IE You lot are not gonna win this RWC if you can play performances like that. It was a crushing wake up about what they are really capable of. I hope they prove me wrong, but I can't see it, too much of the issue was about a pathetic lack of resilience.

The Wallabies deserved all the criticism as a team, including the coaching staff, and I for one don't resile from it. The only individual I personally singled out was Quade, because I expected him to show more generalship and less low percentage rugby. We have one of the best backlines in the world. Smart percentage rugby would have given us the ability to defuse the Irish' highly effective spoiling tactics. My only small guilt trip is that O'Connor showed some brilliance in that game with that try stopping tackle and he probably did deserve a motm point for it, but I was too steamed (still am really) and gave mine to the three guys injured.