School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[sidelineview]

Is rugby played in every primary school in NZ?

 

[Up the Guts]

I am certainly not going to argue with you re AFL and soccer at club level, and everything you said.
BUT even at school level there are typically many more soccer teams, not AFL as yet, than rugby teams.
So club may be stronger for these sports but they still win in numbers at school, which is probably why this translates to club as well.

I also don't understand why a great school like Shore, or any other, allows their best players to play club ahead of school.
That really does sh. me.

School first, the rest 2nd.

I believe the Shore has some archaic policy that those playing at an elite level can apply for special permission not to do school sport and to their credit all the boys made themselves available at crunch time. Bit more of an issue in sports like soccer and cricket where you can compete at a very high level without being fully physically developed.

Agree, that there is definitely a growth in soccer and AFL at schools and Shore is a good example of that.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yep astute point, so I guess the question now is, this has always been the case for many years, why now are we in dire straights?

I think it's as stated above, we live in a much more competitive world.

I think we were in a sweet spot.
Like the 1977 schoolboys and the 84 Wobblies but we also probably had the drop on the rest of the rugby playing world because we had long term experience of pro league. The other rugby powerhouses had no or very little league from which to draw: muggleton and less kiss + rod mcqueen with his northern beaches league mates all helped translate into a formula of ball retention by scientific planning of phases and league tackling.
We stopped losing players to league and even got a few back. None of the other countries had ever lost many to league.
And, to bring it back on thread, we were playing from a broader base outside the private schools.

 

[WLF]

I believe the Shore has some archaic policy that those playing at an elite level can apply for special permission not to do school sport and to their credit all the boys made themselves available at crunch time. Bit more of an issue in sports like soccer and cricket where you can compete at a very high level without being fully physically developed.

Agree, that there is definitely a growth in soccer and AFL at schools and Shore is a good example of that.

Look I think this is a hard one, do you play for school first or is the individual more important.
People will argue differently but unless it's an extreeemly unusual case, I think at these ages the team and school should come first. We are dealing with immature people here, much like this thread, but seriously, kids/young men/boys, need to grow up first before they try and become superstars.

 

[sidelineview]

There's been growth in AFL & soccer in schools because more young kids start playing the games at Club level.
Private schools have become all important for the game of rugby and scholarships can play an important role as long as it doesnt get out of hand.
Tristan Reilly was a Koori kid who i believe went to Joeys on a scholarship. He was a promising Junior Rabbitohs league player who chose to pursue rugby post school.
I would hazard a guess and say a lot of kids in NZ start playing rugby at school and Club levels.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

NZ have a lot of poaching and scholarships - you remind me that in one of the wings of this hotel California not only is there pink champagne on ice but links to some articles concerning the rugby talent arms race in Auckland schools.
My understanding is that all underage rugby in NZ is school based.
Edit: School sporting scholarships/recruitment

 

[Inside Shoulder]

School sporting scholarships/recruitment

 

[Inside Shoulder]

http://www.saschoolsports.co.za/rug...schools-spending-r-31-million-on-1st-xvs.html

 

[Quick Hands]

Matraville High was always in a strong league area.
Wednesday afternoon rugby was once very strong in public schools.
Exactly when and why it dropped off Im not sure but it did.
The growth in the popularity of Club AFL and soccer is a significant part of this issue. League kids attending rugby schools adapt to rugby easily and some do choose rugby post school.
AFL & soccer kids are gonsky from the school rugby playing ranks.
When Club anything clashes with school rugby its expected students prioritise school sport. Thats normal.
When Club rugby is played on Sunday there's no reason why they cant play both.
The rugby governing bodies have been asleep at the wheel.
That cant be disputed

It dropped off in the early 00s when JON introduced the top down policy and put all the cash into elite rugby and ignored the rest of the game.

 

[Quick Hands]

Here is what I think has been happening and I am interested to hear other people's opinions.

1. AFL and Soccer have successfully out marketed Rugby, BIG TIME for all the reasons BAR, sideline and everyone has outlined.
2. Typically boys over 15 find it physically tougher than in younger years, to play a school game on Sat and then back up on Sunday, this is aside from their parents instructing them that study is also now a priority ie on Sunday, as Sat school sport is compulsory.
This would affect overall Sunday club numbers, I would think.
3. Many parents these days just don't want little Johnny to get tackled, I have been told that soccer is very physical! (WTF)
4. The ARU is embarrassing, I believe the business lost $3m last FY.
5. The headline act for rugby, the Wallabies, don't compete well anymore on the world stage.

I am sure we could all go on, but this is a train smash, everything starts at the top.
This is a business, ie ARU led, and it is almost in insolvency.

The strengths of the game need to be promoted at all levels, particularly at the grass roots level.
These chosen strengths need to be palatable to a much broader audience then is currently the case.

Broadly agree with all your points.

But the thing is WTF, a generation ago junior club rugby was played on a Saturday, i.e. at the same time as CAS and GPS games, so there was virtually no crossover of players after 12s. The kids playing club rugby were those at state schools or catholic schools or non CAS/GPS private schools. Junior club rugby was a reasonably strong competition with reasonable depth.

 

[Quick Hands]

My understanding of the public school issue is that its a lack of qualified personnel to "take" the sport. I also hear that whereas Wednesday afternoons were once for sport they no longer are.
You suggest elsewhere that schools play league - my understanding is that even that code is smaller now than it once was.
Your favourite example, Matraville, is a sports high in a league area.
Im not sure what your last line means: the schools demand it. Here is an example:

School sport still exists in state schools, it's just that in most cases rugby isn't a part of it. I think that there is one or possibly two Wednesday afternoon zone rugby competitions left in Sydney playing rugby.

The local zone here has soccer and touch football as their "grade sports" i.e. sports graded for interschool competition.

In primary the local zone has soccer and league as their PSSA i.e. interschool sports (held on Friday afternoons)

Interestingly, for a supposed "league school", Matraville High has won the Waratah Shield on 5 occasions - four of those were way before it became a sports high and only two of the other 4 were during the "Ellla period"

1972, 1976, 1977, 1983 and 2007.

So the idea that it was always a "league school" is utter nonsense.

I also note that Randwick Boys High won on 4 occasions 1963, 1975, 1978, 1982.

Interestingly in its first 20 years of competition (1963-1983), the shield was won exclusively by state high schools - including academically selective ones. Gradually since that time the balance shift until now when local comprehensive state high schools don't even enter. In fact there were only 4 schools in the competition last year - 2 ISA schools and 2 state sports high schools (Oakhill, St Augs, Westfield Sports and Hills Sports). A metephor of rugby in Australia where the talent is concentrated in an ever diminishing elite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waratah_Shield

 

[sidelineview]

It dropped off in the early 00s when JON introduced the top down policy and put all the cash into elite rugby and ignored the rest of the game.

Thanks.
Obviously a big mistake: the building from the top down strategy.

 

[sidelineview]

A metaphor of rugby in Australia where the talent is concentrated in an ever diminishing elite.

Very true. Many players from State Schools made the early Aussie Schoolboys teams.
Matraville High is a league school now, but wasn't previously even though it existed in strong league territory.

 

[sidelineview]

NZ have a lot of poaching and scholarships - you remind me that in one of the wings of this hotel California not only is there pink champagne on ice but links to some articles concerning the rugby talent arms race in Auckland schools.
My understanding is that all underage rugby in NZ is school based.
Edit: School sporting scholarships/recruitment

Ok, that's taking scholarships to a crazy level.
You remind me of extreme cynicism but the personal barbs should stop there.

Scholarships can provide opportunities for students who otherwise wouldn't attend private schools in Australia and end up playing the game. That's a good thing. Australian rugby has benefited from the Joeys school providing opportunities.
One glass of red a day is said to be good for you unless the glass is as big as a ten gallon hat.

There seems to be a lot of Club and School rugby opportunities in NZ from U6s and with age/weight restrictions.
They start young with less competition form other sports.

In 2004 the NZRU Community Rugby Plan declared its #1 priority to be “establishing rugby as the first choice game for all NZ kids”. To achieve this, the NZRU implemented the Small Blacks Development Model across New Zealand – a set of rules and guidelines on how rugby should be played for different ages to assist with the progressive development of the skills and knowledge required for all involved to enjoy the game.

 

[Quick Hands]

What you have to consider when you compare AFL and soccer to rugby in respect to club numbers is that for the most part school rugby is the premier rugby competition whereas for soccer and AFL club is the premier competition.

This is the inherent problem with the rugby model. It's, with the possible exception of rowing, the only sport where school sport is stronger than club junior sport. Straight away this limits the base. There's nothing wrong with having strong school sport - sports such as water polo and basketball have strong school compeitions, but the club level is a little higher again.

 

[Gary Owen III]

When Club rugby is played on Sunday there's no reason why they cant play both.

I don't think Harry Jones would agree... to be more specific TKS didn't agree

 

[sidelineview]

I don't think Harry Jones would agree. to be more specific TKS didn't agree

For fear of injury I suspect. It's a bit of a stretch that any school could restrict what a student does on his own time unless he's on a scholarship.

EDIT: It's understandable that the school and parents would not want a student to play competitive sport both days of the weekend, with all things considered.

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't think Harry Jones would agree. to be more specific TKS didn't agree

Then there's the physical toll on growing bodies of two full contact, high intesity games in two days, plus 3-4 contact training sessions between the two different teams.

 

[Spieber]

For fear of injury I suspect. It's a bit of a stretch that any school could restrict what a student does on his own time unless he's on a scholarship.

EDIT: It's understandable that the school and parents would not want a student to play competitive sport both days of the weekend, with all things considered.

In this case the parent/s did not agree with the school and son ended up finishing somewhere else.

EDIT: but agree with your point that parents are less inclined for little Jayden, Jake, Jarrad, Jed, Joel, Jordan, Jy, Jaeger, Jarman, or Jackson to play two consecutive days (stole the names from a couple of AFL team lists - more white than NRL or Super).

 

[sidelineview]

In this case the parent/s did not agree with the school and son ended up finishing somewhere else.

EDIT: but agree with your point that parents are less inclined for little Jayden, Jake, Jarrad, Jed, Joel, Jordan, Jy, Jaeger, Jarman, or Jackson to play two consecutive days (stole the names from a couple of AFL team lists - more white than NRL or Super).

Lol. Gotta pay that one.