Shute Shield 2014

[Prodigy]

Obviously the metropolitan clubs which didn't field teams in Premier Div 2 would need to form a relationship with a Subbies club to take their overflow and provide the replacements (they would obviously need over the season to cope with injuries) but this could be mutually beneficial.

the only issue here Cattledog would be a need for Subbies to change their rules. As it currently stands a player can only be registered with one club, as it should be. When a player transfers club, he can go one way and then back only once in a season. This could become an issue.

Unless of course, said Subbies club was to change their name and identity to that of the Premier club.

 

[Dave Beat]

the only issue here Cattledog would be a need for Subbies to change their rules. As it currently stands a player can only be registered with one club, as it should be. When a player transfers club, he can go one way and then back only once in a season. This could become an issue.

Unless of course, said Subbies club was to change their name and identity to that of the Premier club.

Interesting thought, I wonder how it would be views . If the Premier Club was considered the rep team of the sub districts , and the rep team could select rep players if they wished?

Nah that's getting to messy.

 

[howyagoin]

If I was a 3rd grader with aspirations to play 2nd grade (which there are a fair few of) I'd be filthy if my club farmed me out to another identity (subbies club) because they've got injuries. I'd also be filthy at not being able to back up for 2nd grade & possibly come off the bench because I'm playing at another oval & some kid from colts has taken my spot... If that proposal was to take off itd have to be all games at one oval. Otherwise leave it as is

 

[Done that]

If I was a 3rd grader with aspirations to play 2nd grade (which there are a fair few of) I'd be filthy if my club farmed me out to another identity (subbies club) because they've got injuries. I'd also be filthy at not being able to back up for 2nd grade & possibly come off the bench because I'm playing at another oval & some kid from colts has taken my spot. If that proposal was to take off itd have to be all games at one oval. Otherwise leave it as is

Exactly.
The end result will mean the loss of players from each club because the lower grade players effectively are no longer in the loop or in reality not considered to be part of the
main core of players.This destroys the cohesiveness between players in each group , & reduces the feeling of identification of the second group with the club.Many of the older players
keep playing because they still identify with the club & enjoy the camaraderie that has developed over the years.
There are many elements besides the above which go to make up the dynamics within a Shute Shield club.These are what defines the culture,not only within each club,but also
have defined the entity of Rugby over the years.
The "new" concept is an attempt to copy the rugby league model,minus the money which they spend on players.
The main benefit to Shute Shield clubs will be that when the lower grade players depart & the number of teams in the club diminish as a consequence, then the cost to the clubs to maintain their
programmes each week will reduce.
The cost on the other hand,is the destruction of much of the club culture & the reason why most people want to play Rugby,& ultimately the demotion of Rugby to a boutique sport.

 

[Dave Beat]

If I was a 3rd grader with aspirations to play 2nd grade (which there are a fair few of) I'd be filthy if my club farmed me out to another identity (subbies club) because they've got injuries. I'd also be filthy at not being able to back up for 2nd grade & possibly come off the bench because I'm playing at another oval & some kid from colts has taken my spot. If that proposal was to take off itd have to be all games at one oval. Otherwise leave it as is

Agree.

 

[Cattledog]

the only issue here Cattledog would be a need for Subbies to change their rules. As it currently stands a player can only be registered with one club, as it should be. When a player transfers club, he can go one way and then back only once in a season. This could become an issue.

Unless of course, said Subbies club was to change their name and identity to that of the Premier club.

Good point Prodigy. However, this issue could be solved by perhaps applying the rules from juniors in regards to transferable and non transferable players. A club could nominate it's transferable players / reserves with a subbies club and these guys (and only these guys) could be called up as needed. However, once they've played a certain number of premier grade games they can not return to the lower division / subbies.

In comparison to the eligibility silliness that occurs every year when S15 players return to the SS semi finals without playing many games (and due to some pretty dubious reasoning) the system above seems pretty transparent.

It is of course wise to note a couple of things:

1. Giving away your lower grades would be a serious decision and (as I said before) certainly not for everyone. it creates problems in itself.
2. There is a real risk is that the players who get a taste of the subbies might not want to come back! Especially if it's going back to get belted.

However, if the PTB's are hell bent on this we're all going to have to adapt.

Don't get me wrong. I'm running around western sydney trying to build a quality colts program based upon getting 60 x Penrith U20's playing at the same venue every week. These proposed changes will massively impact on the culture I'm trying to build.

 

[Dave Beat]

Good point Prodigy. However, this issue could be solved by perhaps applying the rules from juniors in regards to transferable and non transferable players. A club could nominate it's transferable players / reserves with a subbies club and these guys (and only these guys) could be called up as needed. However, once they've played a certain number of premier grade games they can not return to the lower division / subbies.

In comparison to the eligibility silliness that occurs every year when S15 players return to the SS semi finals without playing many games (and due to some pretty dubious reasoning) the system above seems pretty transparent.

It is of course wise to note a couple of things:

1. Giving away your lower grades would be a serious decision and (as I said before) certainly not for everyone. it creates problems in itself.
2. There is a real risk is that the players who get a taste of the subbies might not want to come back! Especially if it's going back to get belted.

However, if the PTB's are hell bent on this we're all going to have to adapt.

Don't get me wrong. I'm running around western sydney trying to build a quality colts program based upon getting 60 x Penrith U20's playing at the same venue every week. These proposed changes will massively impact on the culture I'm trying to build.

And there is the reasons I said - Nah to messy. We don't need to over complicate things

 

[I like to watch]

How about nothing gets changed unless there are obvious and undeniable benefits in doing so.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

For all the grief that SRU get from certain posters (well - me), the response to Pulver was well reasoned.

They seem to be of the view that there will be no change to the Shute Shield format for a while.

 

[Rugby Central]

Obviously the metropolitan clubs which didn't field teams in Premier Div 2 would need to form a relationship with a Subbies club to take their overflow and provide the replacements (they would obviously need over the season to cope with injuries) but this could be mutually beneficial.

For the "well run clubs" as Dave puts it, no such relationship is necessary. There is nothing stopping SS Clubs from entering teams into Subbies. Any player playing for the Manly, for example, are registered to Manly. And can play with whatever team they are selected for, regardless of which competition they are in.

Instead of some horrible decline, it would actually strengthen SS Clubs because guys could join the Club and work their way up.

The good ones would find their lower grades making their way to the top of Div 1 Subbies and the others that are currently struggling would be under no pressure to field so many teams. The Subbies Clubs will benefit from having the quality competition.

Ambitious clubs will succeed, well run social clubs will continue and cultureless clubs will die....just has it has always been The difference is the ridiculous protection being afforded some SS clubs would disappear. If these Clubs are so important to the fabric of Sydney Rugby, let them prove it.

The rules don't need to change. No new competition needs to be invented. And huge sums of money don't need to be spent. The structure already exists.

 

[Retired Fatty]

How would the proposed structure work with regard to front-row replacements?
If first colts has to carry 2 or 3 front row replacements on the bench at a different venue from 2nd colts then you're going to need a lot of front rowers per club (and the first colts replacements aren't going to get much game time).
Similarly do you put unnecessary risk on having the first colts front row provide bench cover for second grade or would you expect 3 fresh front row replacements for 2nds too? Whilst some of the better colts props/hookers could cope (and would gain from the experience) there would be plenty who aren't ready physically or technically.

 

[Dave Beat]

How would the proposed structure work with regard to front-row replacements?
quote]
Well because it's colts you cant use a Retired Fatty, so they'll have to seek possibly a school boy fatty who wants a crack.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The Beasts have recruited Andrew Mehrtens as a technical advisor it seems. And are on the hunt for some big name players I hear

have heard that as well - and offering $$$$$$
rugby mercenaries should contact the Beasts if they have yet to be in touch
;-)

I believe they are after Lala Lam and Pete Samu

Where are the $ coming from? I thought that the Beasties were nearly broke.

Another Sugar Daddy with deep pockets?

 

[scaraby]

Where are the $ coming from? I thought that the Beasties were nearly broke.

Another Sugar Daddy with deep pockets?

Lexus new sponsor maybe they are getting an lx570 with beds in the back...go the Beasties

 

[Nevawaz]

I think it's time to look at bringing in a Western Sydney competition consisting of Parramatta, Penrith, Campbelltown, UWS, Blacktown, Hawkesbury Valley and Blue Mountains. Obviously wouldn't be the same standard as the Eastern comp though it would be great for the development of the game out west. As long as it was given the same standing as the eastern comp and a Western Sydney academy was set up to develop the talent it could be the type of thing that gives rugby a real boost. It would be a better proposition for the lower graders than being cannon fodder for the east and lessen the travel involved making rugby at all grades more accessible. A few end of season rep games would give the standouts an opportunity to get noticed at a higher level.

 

[scaraby]

I think it's time to look at bringing in a Western Sydney competition consisting of Parramatta, Penrith, Campbelltown, UWS, Blacktown, Hawkesbury Valley and Blue Mountains. Obviously wouldn't be the same standard as the Eastern comp though it would be great for the development of the game out west. As long as it was given the same standing as the eastern comp and a Western Sydney academy was set up to develop the talent it could be the type of thing that gives rugby a real boost. It would be a better proposition for the lower graders than being cannon fodder for the east and lessen the travel involved making rugby at all grades more accessible. A few end of season rep games would give the standouts an opportunity to get noticed at a higher level.

sounds good in concept but you end up getting a huge shift of players away from the clubs in the west. Good players won't want to play in something they perceive as 2nd division

 

[Nevawaz]

That's a risk though many would say its already happening and rep games might combat this.

 

[Tah and feathered]

Lexus new sponsor maybe they are getting an lx570 with beds in the back.go the Beasties

Lexus new sponsor maybe they are getting an lx570 with beds in the back.go the Beasties

Maybe Easts do what they normally do
Don't pay what they offer

 

[scaraby]

Maybe Easts do what they normally do
Don't pay what they offer

ouch.....

 

[Blackers13]

I think it's time to look at bringing in a Western Sydney competition consisting of Parramatta, Penrith, Campbelltown, UWS, Blacktown, Hawkesbury Valley and Blue Mountains. Obviously wouldn't be the same standard as the Eastern comp though it would be great for the development of the game out west. As long as it was given the same standing as the eastern comp and a Western Sydney academy was set up to develop the talent it could be the type of thing that gives rugby a real boost. It would be a better proposition for the lower graders than being cannon fodder for the east and lessen the travel involved making rugby at all grades more accessible. A few end of season rep games would give the standouts an opportunity to get noticed at a higher level.

Possibly the most condescending comment ever posted.