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State and Territory politics

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
It seems that the only difference between Liberal and Labor is where they hide their slush funds. Labor being the unionists they are hide their slush funds inside unions whereas the Liberals, being the great private business, free market proponents they are, hide their slush funds in private companies.

There will now be 5 NSW Liberal MPs sitting on the cross benches whilst they're facing allegations of corruption. That's only one person short of being 10% of their sitting members.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
It is no wonder QLD is looking to wind back some CMC powers when they see what is happening in NSW. Not many are going to be left with there reputation intact. I use the term reputation very, very, very loosely.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
It is no wonder QLD is looking to wind back some CMC powers when they see what is happening in NSW. Not many are going to be left with there reputation intact. I use the term reputation very, very, very loosely.

The problem with ICAC is that it is not a court and operates outside the legal system.

Bad pollies should get the lot on both sides but ICAC is a close to a Star Chamber and no democracy wants that.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
I'd like to see an ICAI (Independent Commission Against Incompetence) set up.

Plenty of Ministers and departmental heads would end up in front of that body.

Start with CityRail/Sydney Trains and Transport NSW.

How is a train that is 5 minutes late judged as being on time?
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The problem with ICAC is that it is not a court and operates outside the legal system.

Bad pollies should get the lot on both sides but ICAC is a close to a Star Chamber and no democracy wants that.

Do you think the same thing about other inquiries such as the Fitzgerald Inquiry, The Wood Royal Commission, the Police Integrity Commission?

There is a very good reason such standing bodies exist and IMO they act to preserve faith in democracy.

Would you rather the unethical and in some cases corrupt activities being exposed by this latest investigation be overlooked? Without a Court such as the ICAC such things could not be investigated.

These Politicians are supposed to be smart, and trustworthy. Don't forget that they took oath to serve, no themselves or their party but Australia and the people of the state/nation. As a child I was taught that if you are ashamed of something and it can't be discussed in public than you know it is wrong. The only reason these idiots have to resign is they have been caught out doing the wrong thing, and that in itself disqualifies them from their office, the stupidity as much as the unethical/corrupt behaviour.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
Do you think the same thing about other inquiries such as the Fitzgerald Inquiry, The Wood Royal Commission, the Police Integrity Commission?

There is a very good reason such standing bodies exist and IMO they act to preserve faith in democracy.

Would you rather the unethical and in some cases corrupt activities being exposed by this latest investigation be overlooked? Without a Court such as the ICAC such things could not be investigated.

These Politicians are supposed to be smart, and trustworthy. Don't forget that they took oath to serve, no themselves or their party but Australia and the people of the state/nation. As a child I was taught that if you are ashamed of something and it can't be discussed in public than you know it is wrong. The only reason these idiots have to resign is they have been caught out doing the wrong thing, and that in itself disqualifies them from their office, the stupidity as much as the unethical/corrupt behaviour.

Royal Commissions often has set perameters and operate differently to ICAC who has a lot more flexibility and unaccountability.

No I wan't corruption discovered and dealt with but something close to a star chamber is only one step away from say Quantonimo (?) Bay
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Wait. ICAC, where witnesses are questioned by a silk in a public forum and are represented by their own barrister is one step away from a secretive military prison where prisoners were routinely tortured and kept for years without charge?
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Royal Commissions often has set perameters and operate differently to ICAC who has a lot more flexibility and unaccountability.

No I wan't corruption discovered and dealt with but something close to a star chamber is only one step away from say Quantonimo (?) Bay


I would suggest Runner that you either attend some public hearings at the ICAC, Local, District and Supreme Courts and if possible hearings at the NSW PIC. Then re-assess your position.

At the very least read the transcript of the proceedings. To compare them to what the Star Chamber courts became in the 16th century is a blatant misrepresentation of what has occurred here, and the functioning of these very important bodies.

These individuals are coming unstuck from their own actions and the evidence presented in so many cases are documents from their own hand, which is an irony that never ceases to amuse me.

The first thing that all of those who have appeared should have remembered about the ICAC and the other standing commissions of inquiry is that they never ask a question that they do not have the answer to and the evidence to back it up. They are fools of the highest degree in this regard in addition to anything else that may be found.

Make no mistake I do not think that anybody will be convicted of any offence, even if they are charged, simple because the burden of proof required is exceedingly high and the evidence easily muddied and contorted to find that nth degree of "reasonable" doubt.

As I have said before where low level officials in Councils and Police Officers and other bodies have been in situations similar to those we see here, those individuals are not allowed to move into the shadows of the organisation they are either forced to resign or sacked. So it should be here, there are serious questions of integrity and ethical conduct that have been breached and I question how the public can have any faith in any Politician from either side of the house given they have either known of these activities and condoned them by inaction or they were wilfully blind. Neither side can take any moral high ground because both are compromised.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Do you think the same thing about other inquiries such as the Fitzgerald Inquiry, The Wood Royal Commission, the Police Integrity Commission?

There is a very good reason such standing bodies exist and IMO they act to preserve faith in democracy.

Would you rather the unethical and in some cases corrupt activities being exposed by this latest investigation be overlooked? Without a Court such as the ICAC such things could not be investigated.

These Politicians are supposed to be smart, and trustworthy. Don't forget that they took oath to serve, no themselves or their party but Australia and the people of the state/nation. As a child I was taught that if you are ashamed of something and it can't be discussed in public than you know it is wrong. The only reason these idiots have to resign is they have been caught out doing the wrong thing, and that in itself disqualifies them from their office, the stupidity as much as the unethical/corrupt behaviour.
It's interesting to watch,but does it have any real value?
It's been over a year since Obeid & his billionaire mates were exposed as acting corruptly.
And nothing..........
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
It's interesting to watch,but does it have any real value?
It's been over a year since Obeid & his billionaire mates were exposed as acting corruptly.
And nothing....

They haven't been charged with anything yet but the ill-gotten coal exploration licences have been cancelled.

The current ICAC proceedings have led to several corrupt and/or very forgetful current politicians leaving politics. Surely that is of benefit to the NSW public.

Whilst I really want to see Obeid and McDonald brought to justice for their crimes, I think there's more value for the state in exposing the corruption, cancelling the illegal deals and weeding these people out of politics.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Yes but I think there is a bit of a difference between political dirty play (like the shit being revealled at the moment) and outright criminal activity (what Obeid and Macdonald did).

The libs have rightfully lost their jobs, but Obeid and co need to go to fucking jail. The lack of action on that front disturbs me.
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Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Yes but I think there is a bit of a difference between political dirty play (like the shit being revealled at the moment) and outright criminal activity (what Obeid and Macdonald did).

The libs have rightfully lost their jobs, but Obeid and co need to go to fucking jail. The lack of action on that front disturbs me.
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This is getting lost in the wash. The leftie press are carrying on as if a $1000 political donation equals criminal activity. Both are wrong. The one is just, well, much worse.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Yes but I think there is a bit of a difference between political dirty play (like the shit being revealled at the moment) and outright criminal activity (what Obeid and Macdonald did).

The libs have rightfully lost their jobs, but Obeid and co need to go to fucking jail. The lack of action on that front disturbs me.
.

Absolutely. Hopefully something happens soon.

The assertion was however that ICAC wasn't of value because Obeid hadn't been charged with a crime yet. I disagree with that.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
The issue with ICAC at the moment is that it's power in the media and in politics outstrips it's actual power by a factor of 10. They can't make you go to jail, but they can ruin your career.

So far most career-ruinings have been entirely justified. But take the example of Mike Gallacher- a good police Minister, who may well be found to be corrupt in the latest round of investigations. He hasn't yet though, he has only been named and some vague allegations thrown at him.

As a result of those (as yet unfounded) accusations he has been forced to resign his ministry and return to the backbench. That doesn't sit easily with me, and the ethos of 'innocent until proven guilty' seems to go out the window when it comes to ICAC.
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boyo

Mark Ella (57)
The issue with ICAC at the moment is that it's power in the media and in politics outstrips it's actual power by a factor of 10. They can't make you go to jail, but they can ruin your career.

So far most career-ruinings have been entirely justified. But take the example of Mike Gallacher- a good police Minister, who may well be found to be corrupt in the latest round of investigations. He hasn't yet though, he has only been named and some vague allegations thrown at him.

As a result of those (as yet unfounded) accusations he has been forced to resign his ministry and return to the backbench. That doesn't sit easily with me, and the ethos of 'innocent until proven guilty' seems to go out the window when it comes to ICAC.
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Maybe it's for others to decide his fate.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Maybe it's for others to decide his fate.

It is, but it shouldn't be. Pollies (like Gallacher) who are named at ICAC respond to media and political pressure and stand down. This happens regardless of their guilt or innocence and months before any verdict is handed down.

There is a case for ICAC to be held behind closed doors to solve this problem. I am not sure on the merits of that to be honest.
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