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Thanks Aussie teams

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PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Interesting read
S24
Oz weakness aids SA drive

Rob Houwing, Sport24 chief writer

Cape Town – It is pretty seldom that you can brand Australia “allies” in any South African quest for sporting success; more usually they are a heart-breaking impediment.
Nor would it be accurate to suggest that Australian teams are actively attempting to boost the SA bid for a first SA Vodacom Super Rugby title success since the installation of conference systems in 2011. (Doesn’t that last Bulls silverware grab of 2010 at Orlando Stadium now seem so scarily distant?)
Unintentionally, however, they are helping our cause as things stand, roughly at the midway mark of the 2016 ordinary season.
There is an increasingly bright chance, thanks to collective frailties in the Aussie conference, that a South African side will be in a position to host a home semi-final, assuming that they get past one of two guaranteed home quarter-finals for the log-topping teams from the Africa conferences.
If that happens, not only is it an improvement on last year, when no South African franchise even cracked the last four, but also 2014 when the Sharks had to travel to New Zealand for a semi and were duly smashed 38-6.
The Bulls were our last home semi-finalists in 2013, but they were nosed out 26-23 at Loftus by a Brumbies team of the short Jake White coaching era in Canberra.
It is difficult not to feel that at least one home semi this year will be necessary if a South African side is to break the title drought in these parts: get through that and it only requires one smash-and-grab, one out-of-this-world performance (most likely in New Zealand, you’d imagine) in the August 6 showpiece to end that six-year barrenness.
Of the established trio of southern hemisphere superpowers, South Africa is the only one not to have won Super Rugby yet in the conferences era – New Zealand boasts the Chiefs twice (2012 and 2013) and Highlanders (2015), whilst Australia can trumpet the Reds (2011) and Waratahs (2014).
The chances are currently favourable that a “top two” finish will occur for South Africa this year, given that the prime first and second of the eight seedings for the knockouts seem destined – unless there is a sudden, pronounced Aussie wake-up – for NZ and SA hands, in either order.
It is the Australian section of the competition that is labouring the most, as evidenced by the fact that the leading NZ (and overall) team, the Chiefs, boast 33 points, the top SA side (Stormers) have 28 and the best-performing Aussie outfit, the Melbourne Rebels, lag some way behind with 22.
Further confirmation that the Aussies are largely floundering in 2016 comes when you tally up total points managed by NZ, SA and Aussie teams thus far, and then put averages to them: the five Kiwi sides have amassed 131 points between them (average 26.20), the six SA teams 115 (average 19.16) and the five Australian franchises only a pretty lamentable 74 (average 14.80).
The Rebels may be relative surprise packages Down Under this year, but even their present mastery of their conference would see them placed a humdrum eighth overall under the old, single-table system pre-2011.
Four NZ teams (Chiefs, Crusaders, Hurricanes and Highlanders) and three South Africans (Stormers, Lions, Bulls) boast more points than the Melbourne outfit at this bend in the road.
What’s been surprising has been the decline this season of the Waratahs, champions only two years back, and the normally highly competitive Brumbies, even if there is still time left for revival in each case.
Of course earning possible supremacy over the Australian participants in the competition hardly gives any one of the Stormers, Lions, Bulls and Sharks some sort of blissful, freebie pass to the title … expect a couple of juggernauts from the land of the long white cloud to stand very spiritedly in the way, as has become the norm.
But it could help a fair bit …
*For the first time in Super Rugby history this weekend, six SA teams will be in action against overseas foes in a single round.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
I never really bodder about this, lately it become one of the Sharks and Lions supporters biggest excuse they use against the Stormers/Bulls supporters looking at the Saffer combined log.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
Anybody peeved at the stupidity of Andrew Slacks comments - claiming Australia should not have expanded super rugby sides so fast...blah blah.

Bloody dumb arse jumping on the band wagon. Rugby loses countless players to league at schoolboy level regularly and has failed to really penetrate state schools as no effort there. How about solving the problem of growing rugby at grass roots level as limiting professional opportunities at super rugby level only worsens the problem. As in case Mr Slack you have not noticed soccer, league and afl are wining the battle for talent and creating less professional opportunities is not the answer. Rather provide opportunities to grow the talent.

Bloody useless moron.....
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
@Slim (sorry my reply thing don't work) that's exactly what I try to say in the post above yours.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
There is merit towards what he has said, Australian rugby ultimately expanded too quickly without ensuring their was the depth in place to make those teams competitive.. That's the reality of the situation.

More could/should have been done to ensure that the new teams and the existing teams were competitive. Whether that be through extra academy positions, more overseas imports, more targeted recruiting etc.. Whatever it may be Australian Rugby left itself short and now has 4 underperforming teams.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
That is so not true...as Cheika said tonight on Rugby365 hindsight is lovely thing...but since rugby expansion had European rugby have major growth in attracting players where as he said now 60 players playing overseas who would qualify for super rugby and another 40 probables.

What this ignores is Rugby failed to put in place the platform for depth and is more than just professional opportunities. Providing enough professional opportunities one part of this - which at least provided somewhat - where failed is ignoring the other aspects.

Wrong focus....focus on developing the depth in view of fact there is a war for talent with other football codes in Oz and rugby is well behind the eight ball.

That can't be disputed.
 
T

TOCC

Guest
Yes but European Rugby didn't happen overnight, European Rugby's growing attraction in recruiting players has been clearly evident for the past 10 to 20 years.

All this talk of improving pathways, better recruitment and retention is exactly the issue which Slack is talking about. ARU just assumed that by providing more professional opportunities this would naturally improve depth, they were wrong.

Australia expanded without ensuring the depth was their to make those teams competitive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

mst

Peter Johnson (47)
Yes but European Rugby didn't happen overnight, European Rugby's growing attraction in recruiting players has been clearly evident for the past 10 to 20 years.

All this talk of improving pathways, better recruitment and retention is exactly the issue which Slack is talking about. ARU just assumed that by providing more professional opportunities this would naturally improve depth, they were wrong.

Australia expanded without ensuring the depth was their to make those teams competitive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find it interesting that we keep going on about depth and reasons why we don't have it. With 60+ players O/S that could be in a Super Rugby team, and when pushed (almost requires teams to be looking down the barrel of a loaded gun!) we seemed to able to find talent, (EG: Tahs for example this year with Holloway and co, Reds with McIntyre). Then to add on to this we are again hearing talk of the Tahs bring players back from O/S including Kepu.

So its closing doors for emerging talent and chance for any depth to be given a chance to show their stuff or be discovered or outplay the incumbents. In addition, with a ingrained cultural propensity to reward loyalty over form we are always going to struggle to allow new blood in. We are aware of the differences in the Kiwi v Aussie systems where all Aussie teams like to do it differently and their own way so unlike the kiwis, there are no benchmarks to measures against so skills and standards all over the shop so its unlikely players will have a complete skill set, rather strength and weaknesses and not a complete game.

Players develop with game time, so maybe there are 60+ players sufficiently developed O/S that could be invited back, but why aren't they?

A quick look at the stats might reveal that Aussie teams introduce the least amount of rookies in to Super Rugby each year. That more likely that is the reason we lack depth.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
I think people are putting the cart before the horse here. We don't need depth to make Super Rugby teams more competitive. We need those Super Rugby teams to build depth.

We may not have sufficient depth to support five competitive teams and satisfy the recruitment demands of Europe at this time, but the only way to build that depth is to get more young players on the field at the top level, and that's what's happening.

Consider the situation as it used to be, in which Wallaby candidates queued for years behind Wallaby stalwarts at the Brumbies, Waratahs and Reds, hardly ever getting a game.

Some transparent concern trolling at the hands of the gleeful foreign press (and, sadly also our own) means nothing compared to the combined years of hard-won experience a generation of excellent young prospects is getting.

Previously, we might not have even seen players like Stirzaker and Kerevi outside club rugby yet, let alone even newer hot prospects like Naivalu and Nabuli. Now we're looking at recruiting Koroibete to fill a recruitment gap. That's a good thing.

Damn the torpedos, and full steam ahead.
 

mst

Peter Johnson (47)
I would like to see these stats you refer to

24 to 33 this year (2016) based on the respective induction process (full time contracts only including EPS - excludes foreign players). Pre-season reporting from RUPA and NZRU. I have not compiled SA numbers.

The Kiwis are also not scared to change it up in the coaching ranks unlike the Aussie teams.

IMHO Aussie teams are to scared and slow to change or try something new preferring to be always and adapting, thus always reactive.

Fun fact - the Chiefs assistant coaches are rookies as Super Rugby level.

Having generally attacked without restraint during Rennie's reign, the two-time champions this season seem even more willing to seize every opportunity with ball in hand. And the coach revealed that was no accident.
After losing assistants Wayne Smith (All Blacks) and Tom Coventry (London Irish) to other commitments, Rennie recruited a couple of men who have been key to the Chiefs' sparkling play.
Taranaki stalwart Neil Barnes was brought from Canada to take care of the forwards, installing in the Chiefs a method to better maximise the set piece as a base from which to launch raids, while Tasman coach Kieran Keane assumed the backs portfolio and added an extra element of width to the attack.
"Those are a couple of different coaches with different ideas," Rennie said. "Certainly KK has added to our attack in regards to structure and allowing us to play a bit wider, and we've sort of moulded that with traditionally how we've played.
"We've always had a pretty attacking mindset and been prepared to have a go from anywhere. We all sit around and talk about things, and certainly we're playing with a lot more width and that's helping us spread the defence."
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/chiefs-rugby-team/news/article.cfm?c_id=145&objectid=11616163

 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
I not too sure everyone should keep knocking the expansion to 5 teams, the last team in the expansion is Aussie's top team at moment. I tend to go along a bit with Groucho on this, it does help to expand the game in Aus having more teams. The one thing I am real concerned about is the excuse that there are other codes etc to attract players, there is in most countries, I was real surprised after all these years of rugby being around the QRU is apparentlt talking about trying to get into public schools. Geez I wonder why is so hard to try and get the jump on the other codes when it takes this bloody long!!
 
T

TOCC

Guest
24 to 33 this year (2016) based on the respective induction process (full time contracts only including EPS - excludes foreign players). Pre-season reporting from RUPA and NZRU. I have not compiled SA numbers.

Australia has 24 new players and New Zealand has 33? How does this compare to previous years and what's the long term trend?
 
T

TOCC

Guest
I think people are putting the cart before the horse here. We don't need depth to make Super Rugby teams more competitive. We need those Super Rugby teams to build depth.

I don't think it has to be one or the other, if done right hey could have been done at the same time.

Australian Rugby could have developed more depth before expanding but it would have just cost more money that it didn't have. An NRC/ARC would have helped for talent identification but neither were in existence at the time.

ARU could have brought in foreign player allowances for the Force when they were created to lessen the demand on the existing playing pool but didn't. All these foreign marquee players and development player allowances have only been introduced post expansion to alleviate the depth issue.

One idea might have been that the ARU fund all squads to expand to 35 players for the year or two before the expansion team came in and then reducing back to 30 once the comp expands. Across 4 teams that's an extra 20 players in a fully professional environment. Would have been a boost for not only the new team but the existing teams. But, it would have cost money that the ARU was unwilling to pay.
 
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