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The Climate Change Thread

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Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
What a surprise. The Press Council found that The Australian published a whole lot of rubbish about the IPCC report last year and then delayed their corrections (and called them clarifications) and published them inconspiciously.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/press-council-adjudication/story-e6frg6n6-1226998747686

I especially like that The Australian tried to argue that they weren't alone in publishing the misinformation by naming another Murdoch owned paper (Wall Street Journal) as also publishing the same misinformation.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
Behind a pay wall.

No cure for some alarmists.




The cost and effectiveness of zero-carbon power

30 Jul 2014



Electricity demand varies during the day in ways that the supply from wind and solar generation may not match.

Wind and solar power are even more expensive than is commonly thought. Subsidies for renewable energy are one of the most contested areas of public policy. Billions are spent nursing the infant solar- and wind-power industries in the hope that they will one day undercut fossil fuels and drastically reduce the amount of carbon dioxide being put into the atmosphere. The idea seems to be working. Photovoltaic panels have halved in price since 2008 and the capital cost of a solar-power plant – of which panels account for slightly under half – fell by 22 per cent in 2010-13. In a few sunny places, solar power is providing electricity to the grid as cheaply as conventional coal or gas-fired power plants.

But whereas the cost of a solar panel is easy to calculate, the cost of electricity is harder to assess. It depends not only on the fuel used, but also on the cost of capital (power plants take years to build and last for decades), how much of the time a plant operates, and whether it generates power at times of peak demand. To take account of all this, economists use “levelised costs” – the net present value of all costs (capital and operating) of a generating unit over its life cycle, divided by the number of megawatt-hours of electricity it is expected to supply.

The trouble, as Paul Joskow of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has pointed out, is that levelised costs do not take account of the costs of intermittency. Wind power is not generated on a calm day, nor solar power at night, so conventional power plants must be kept on standby – but are not included in the levelised cost of renewables.

Electricity demand also varies during the day in ways that the supply from wind and solar generation may not match, so even if renewable forms of energy have the same levelised cost as conventional ones, the value of the power they produce may be lower. In short, levelised costs are poor at comparing different forms of power generation.

To get around that problem, Charles Frank of the Brookings Institution, a think-tank, uses a cost-benefit analysis to rank various forms of energy. The costs include building and running power plants, and those associated with particular technologies, such as balancing the electricity system when wind or solar plants go offline or disposing of spent nuclear-fuel rods. The benefits of renewable energy include the value of the fuel that would have been used if coal- or gas-fired plants had produced the same amount of electricity and the amount of carbon-dioxide emissions that they avoid. It makes wind and solar power look far more expensive than they appear on the basis of levelised costs.

Comparing zero-carbon with conventional

Mr Frank took four sorts of zero-carbon energy (solar, wind, hydroelectric and nuclear), plus a low-carbon sort (an especially efficient type of gas-burning plant), and compared them with various sorts of conventional power. Obviously, low- and no-carbon power plants do not avoid emissions when they are not working, though they do incur some costs. So nuclear-power plants, which run at about 90 per cent of capacity, avoid almost four times as much CO2 per unit of capacity as do wind turbines, which run at about 25 per cent; they avoid six times as much as solar arrays do. If you assume a carbon price of $US50 ($53) a tonne – way over most actual prices – nuclear energy avoids over $US400,000-worth of carbon emissions per megawatt of capacity, compared with only $US69,500 for solar and $US107,000 for wind.



Nuclear power plants, however, are vastly expensive. A new plant at Hinkley Point, in south-west England, for example, is likely to cost at least $US27 billion. They are also uninsurable commercially. Yet the fact that they run around the clock makes them only 75 per cent more expensive to build and run per MW of capacity than a solar-power plant, Mr Frank reckons.

To determine the overall cost or benefit, though, the cost of the fossil-fuel plants that have to be kept hanging around for the times when solar and wind plants stand idle must also be factored in. Mr Frank calls these “avoided capacity costs” – costs that would not have been incurred had the green-energy plants not been built. Thus a 1MW wind farm running at about 25 per cent of capacity can replace only about 0.23MW of a coal plant running at 90 per cent of capacity. Solar farms run at only about 15 per cent of capacity, so they can replace even less. Seven solar plants or four wind farms would be needed to produce the same amount of electricity over time as a similar-sized coal-fired plant. And all that extra solar and wind capacity is expensive.

If all the costs and benefits are totted up using Mr Frank’s calculation, solar power is by far the most expensive way of reducing carbon emissions. It costs $US189,000 to replace 1MW per year of power from coal. Wind is the next most expensive. Hydropower provides a modest net benefit. But the most cost-effective zero-emission technology is nuclear power. The pattern is similar if 1MW of gas-fired capacity is displaced instead of coal. And all this assumes a carbon price of $US50 a tonne. Using actual carbon prices (below $US10 in Europe) makes solar and wind look even worse. The carbon price would have to rise to $185 a tonne before solar power shows a net benefit.

There are, of course, all sorts of reasons to choose one form of energy over another, including emissions of pollutants other than CO2 and fear of nuclear accidents. Mr Frank does not look at these. Still, his findings have profound policy implications. At the moment, most rich countries and China subsidise solar and wind power to help stem climate change. Yet this is the most expensive way of reducing greenhouse-gas emissions. Meanwhile Germany and Japan, among others, are mothballing nuclear plants, which (in terms of carbon abatement) are cheaper. The implication of Mr Frank’s research is clear: governments should target emissions reductions from any source rather than focus on boosting certain kinds of renewable energy.

The Economist

The Australian Financial Review


 

Mr Doug

Dick Tooth (41)
Gnostic, to me, that large hole with its smooth sides, and bevelled top, indicates that rather than ice melting and falling down, it's more probable that a gas explosion below the surface blew a limited amount of molten material (at a very high temperature) to the surface! A bit like a small volcano blowing super-hot water/steam/acid, instead of molten rock (lava).

Only other feasible cause is underground missile testing by Vlad Putin's mob!!
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
All well and good to talk about economics of renewables, but we can't build a rocket out of money that is big enough to get ALL us to the backup planet.

No wait - we don't have one of those.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
All well and good to talk about economics of renewables, but we can't build a rocket out of money that is big enough to get ALL us to the backup planet.

No wait - we don't have one of those.

Don't waste the money on unrealistic solutions. I have never said climate change doesn't exist. I feel that various groups have lead us up a blind alley.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Don't waste the money on unrealistic solutions. I have never said climate change doesn't exist. I feel that various groups have lead us up a blind alley.


Its about as unrealistic to dismiss a particular renewable because it costs too much.

The planet doesn't accept cheques. We're capitalist resource-hungry bitches, and while I accept a certain amount of money needs to be generated to keep the place working, it can't continue to rape the place of resources and upset unique ecosystems for the purpose of gain.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The cost is only one aspect. Base load and supply are very different.

You keep making that sort of comment.

Where we're seeing the huge impact from solar is in small scale PV systems on a house by house basis. This is already having a significant impact on peak demand because almost always, peak demand is matched with lots of sunshine.

As battery systems improve, it will become possible for these households to store electricity and use it when they need it. We may see small scale suburban storage systems where power can be saved and shared on a neighbourhood basis.

I agree that large scale solar plants are unlikely to become the norm anytime soon.

Gas fired plants could start replacing coal fired power stations quite soon though for baseload generation.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
You keep making that sort of comment.

Where we're seeing the huge impact from solar is in small scale PV systems on a house by house basis. This is already having a significant impact on peak demand because almost always, peak demand is matched with lots of sunshine.

As battery systems improve, it will become possible for these households to store electricity and use it when they need it. We may see small scale suburban storage systems where power can be saved and shared on a neighbourhood basis.

I agree that large scale solar plants are unlikely to become the norm anytime soon.

Gas fired plants could start replacing coal fired power stations quite soon though for baseload generation.


Simple point. If you need a coal/nuclear station for peak load on any day that the alternatives don't work then you have a structural problem. To supply on those days you need a plant capable of 100% supply. So politicians and the community will demand that a station that can do that will be built.

Any day that the alternatives cut into usage means less money to pay for the construction etc so they average out the costs and the regular customer etc all pay higher charges. We then as a community subsidize the alternatives that is doing this. So we are paying much more for our electricity to make a few people feel good.

At 20% or more alternative will be costing millions for a very very very small % improvement in CO2. Not much logic there I'm afraid.

If your waiting for batteries then think again as lithium is the best and the supply is limited. Also what do you do to recycle them at the end of there lives. We can't put car batteries in land fill here so we ship them to India. Which of course solves our problem.

Check out the replacement cost of an electric car battery and do the numbers for a house hold size battery. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/hybrid-technology/hybrid-battery-cost.htm

Lets not even get to the solar issue of unit dwellers.

Gas may not get far in NSW if groups oppose it and it still creates CO2.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
You keep making that sort of comment.

Where we're seeing the huge impact from solar is in small scale PV systems on a house by house basis. This is already having a significant impact on peak demand because almost always, peak demand is matched with lots of sunshine.

As battery systems improve, it will become possible for these households to store electricity and use it when they need it. We may see small scale suburban storage systems where power can be saved and shared on a neighbourhood basis.

I agree that large scale solar plants are unlikely to become the norm anytime soon.

Gas fired plants could start replacing coal fired power stations quite soon though for baseload generation.

I agree. Darwin is in the middle of a gas boom in the Timor sea. Sadly every bit that is piped onshore is exported to Japan. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees.

In regards to transmission, we have dropped our shit. This country is blessed with natural capital from arsehole to breakfast time yet we do not have a true national grid.

The constant fetish for coal means we have dropped our shit even more.

This country needs a political climate that truly embraces nation building like we had in the 80's and 90's.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Simple point. If you need a coal/nuclear station for peak load on any day that the alternatives don't work then you have a structural problem. To supply on those days you need a plant capable of 100% supply. So politicians and the community will demand that a station that can do that will be built.

Any day that the alternatives cut into usage means less money to pay for the construction etc so they average out the costs and the regular customer etc all pay higher charges. We then as a community subsidize the alternatives that is doing this. So we are paying much more for our electricity to make a few people feel good.

This is rubbish. The most costly part of the entire electricity system is covering the peak demand. That is being curtailed because solar and other renewables are helping reduce those demand spikes.

If electricity was accurately priced then you would be paying hundreds of dollars to run your air conditioner on the hottest days of the year and it would be incredibly inexpensive at other times.

We are never going to have nuclear power in this country unless both major parties get behind it. The Greens are irrelevant to that argument until there is a push by the LNP and ALP. Personally, I can't see that happening.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Simple point. If you need a coal/nuclear station for peak load on any day that the alternatives don't work then you have a structural problem. To supply on those days you need a plant capable of 100% supply. So politicians and the community will demand that a station that can do that will be built.

Any day that the alternatives cut into usage means less money to pay for the construction etc so they average out the costs and the regular customer etc all pay higher charges. We then as a community subsidize the alternatives that is doing this. So we are paying much more for our electricity to make a few people feel good.

At 20% or more alternative will be costing millions for a very very very small % improvement in CO2. Not much logic there I'm afraid.

If your waiting for batteries then think again as lithium is the best and the supply is limited. Also what do you do to recycle them at the end of there lives. We can't put car batteries in land fill here so we ship them to India. Which of course solves our problem.

Check out the replacement cost of an electric car battery and do the numbers for a house hold size battery. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/hybrid-technology/hybrid-battery-cost.htm

Lets not even get to the solar issue of unit dwellers.

Gas may not get far in NSW if groups oppose it and it still creates CO2.

Given this governments contempt for science, research and development, you just might be onto something Runner.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
The ALP are massively anti nuclear. Whenever they had formed government during the cold war, their foreign affairs agenda was heavy on Nuclear disarmament.
 

Runner

Nev Cottrell (35)
This is rubbish. The most costly part of the entire electricity system is covering the peak demand. That is being curtailed because solar and other renewables are helping reduce those demand spikes.

If electricity was accurately priced then you would be paying hundreds of dollars to run your air conditioner on the hottest days of the year and it would be incredibly inexpensive at other times.

We are never going to have nuclear power in this country unless both major parties get behind it. The Greens are irrelevant to that argument until there is a push by the LNP and ALP. Personally, I can't see that happening.

They may reduce the spike when they work but they will not be able to do it 100% of the time. So I am afraid your point isn't valid. They will continue to build plants that provide 100%.

Don't need to ask the Greens about nuclear they are barking mad,--- look at the influence of the left in the ALP and you see the ideological problem.
 
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