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the Coffee party

Discussion in 'Politics' started by RugbyFuture, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    Health care reform is the big one. They have a weird system over there that is in need of some restructuring. Tying your health care to your employer is the first thing that should go, I reckon.
  2. Scarfman Knitter of the Scarf

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    Well BH, they could tighten their fucking military spending belt for a start!
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  3. Ruggo Mark Ella (57)

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    Like they did after Catrina.

    Americans spend too much time interfering with everybody elses back yard. Like Obama or not but at least he has an agenda focussed on Americas back yard. Congress may not support his methods but congress should be following his lead and attempting too work through Americas domestic issues.

    America also strikes me as a country that has no grasp at the concept of learning from ones past.
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  4. Ash Michael Lynagh (62)

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    America is broke. Over USD14T in debt, and running a huge deficit in % terms of GDP, plus they have around 10% unemployment, which goes up if you look at the people who have given up, or the mass amounts on part time work instead of full time. They are still running QE (basically printing money) to desperately try to stop deflation. Geithner and Bernanke are morons, and tools of Wall Street banksters who are still riding fat off the profits. American is, really and truly, fucked. Just how long it will be before the US gives up its hubris and attempts Euro-style austerity, who knows.

    Which gets us to the Tea Party. Yes, the US is spending itself to either a deflationary breakdown (and default) or a hyper inflationary scenario. Whether either of them will happen is not yet known for sure, or if America will merely experience a couple of Japan's "lost decades". Oh yeah, the Tea Party. Here's the irony: the majority of it is a bunch of which Christian hicks, funded by the ultra-rich elite, and basically doing the rich's bidding. They want smaller government, less regulation, fewer safety nets, but the rank and file of the Tea Party are too dumb to realise that by doing that they are the ones who will suffer at the expense of the puppeteers. For fucks sake, if there's one thing you'd think people learnt from the GFC, it's that deregulation is not the answer, just as neither is overwhelming government interference in a "free" market.

    Sad situation all round.

    And with China one of the largest holders of US bonds, don't be surprised if a trade war breaks out - you might say that it's already occuring with the Chinese halting rare earth exports and refusing to adjust their USD peg for the Renmimbi. And don't forget, most of the large currency shocks ended up in some kind of real war. Unpleasant times are likley ahead.
    I like to watch and Bowside like this.
  5. Elfster Jim Clark (26)

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    Or even more dangerous they could consider tax increases to fund their debt. Over the last thirty years there seems to have been an issue in English speaking democracies where, come election time, the opposing parties have an auction on who can reduce taxes and also increase services. A very short term perspective, but these days that is par for the course for most political parties.

    I am not suggesting governments shouldn't look at reducing their own inefficiences and using tax increases to hide that and also that governments have to be aware of macro and micro economic effects of changes to taxation, but the general populace should hopefully see the nonsensical dream world of lower taxes and increased government spending.

    And I think a lot of inefficiency is middle and upper class welfare and for the lower classes welfare that is deemed a God given right and not a way of assisting amd ameliorating some peoples' dire circumstances.
  6. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    No argument there.
  7. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    Yes, like they did after Katrina. A lot of people in New Orleans were welcomed by the cities in Texas and have ended up staying. The thing about the US is that private charity is big there. They tend to step in and help when governments can't or won't. My former employer had offices in NO and in Houston. They basically said to all the NO people: just get in a car and get to Houston and we'll sort you out. And they did.
  8. Scotty David Codey (61)

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  9. barbarian Nick Farr-Jones (63)

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    Nowhere is this more the case than America. The Tea Party are a prime example: they want to return the budget to the black, but their mantra is 'cut spending, cut taxes'. Bush put in place a series of tax cuts which run out this year, and there is a massive push to 'extend the Bush tax cuts' led by Sarah Palin and co. It doesn't make fucking sense!!! You are trillions of dollars in debt, the last thing you should be doing is cutting taxes, especially when they are already relatively low by world standards.

    Britain have been big enough to make huge cuts to spending, which was politically unpopular but undoubtedly needed. They are needed far more in the USA, but whether any of the politicians have enough guts to do it is very doubtful indeed.

    Incidentally, the upcoming midterms will be the first real test of the actual political power of the Tea Party. Up until now the Democrats have actually welcomed the election of Tea Party backed candidates in Republican Primaries, because they think they are too far right to appeal to the mainstream voter. That is the reason most people think Sarah Palin will never win the Presidency, because she is so far on the right that the left will stand a much greater chance of snaring the swinging, centrist voters who decide elections. If the Tea Party candidates win and win well then that theory may have to be reconsidered and it will add some real weight to her bid for the Presidency in 2012.
  10. Gagger Nick Farr-Jones (63)

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    Interestingly enough, in a Mori poll over here 60% agreed that cuts needed to be made, 50% agreed they'd been done the right way.

    Even the man in the street can tell Labour were spending like drunken fucken sailors. The coalition reckon they'll strip out half a million gov't jobs. If they manage to (watch the smoke and mirrors the civil service will play) I bet the machine won't have as much as a hiccup.

    That all being said I think we need to de-couple two things in this thread - the spending on bail-outs and the spending on stimulus packages

    If we hadn't done the former, we'd all be living like cavemen. It was a no-brainer in retrospect.

    The latter is a matter for debate, history has shown that tight fiscal management deepens recessions, but you can't keep heading towards economic basket-casedom like Greece. Will be interesting, wish I wasn't living in the middle of it - I'm about to get taxed into oblivion!!
  11. Bowside Peter Johnson (47)

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    The whole american system is just straight up fucked. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, nothing is really achieved, the enviroment gets pillaged and most people end up just straight up unhappy with there lives. And to be honest if after how many hundread years they have not managed to realise that and reform it then they deserve to go under.

    I can't for the life of me understand how after 8 years of Bush how they can run back to the right so quickly. One of the reason why I believe that australia is one of the best countries in the world is that the public never allows politics to move too far to the right (or left, although does this ever really happen?). And if they try it we react accordingly (howard, hewson...whitlam).
  12. Bowside Peter Johnson (47)

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    While somewhat noble, a bone to the dog is not charity, charity is a bone shared with the dog, when you are just as hungry as it is.
  13. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    In my opinion, charity is a hand up, not a hand out, as I've said in another thread. Simply giving people things doesn't help them or society in the long run. Helping people get back on their feet and providing for themselves does. But that's just my point of view.

    I think you are also drawing a long bow with the American system too. I lived in it and there are some marked similarities and also some marked differences with the Australian way of life. I will tell you this though: Americans are amongst the most personally generous people you are likely to meet. The paper linked below has some fairly telling stats:

    - 69% of American households donated money to charities in 2000
    - Donations per household were USD1,942 on average
    - American citizens and businesses donated USD3.3B to disaster relief in the wake of Katrina
    - Approximately USD1.6B was donated to charities in the wake of the 2004 Tsunami

    http://www.colby.edu/economics/faculty/phbrown/papers/BrownMintySEJ2008.pdf

    I would argue that the perceived inequities in American society are not as wide as people make out and that your average American gives pretty freely. Their system isn't perfect, but neither is ours.
  14. The_Brown_Hornet Michael Lynagh (62)

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    Anyway, I don't want to come across as all rah-rah and Yay America. I just wanted to provide some counterpoint to what I think are some slightly unfair characterisations of Americans and their society.
  15. Scotty David Codey (61)

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    Gagger,

    It is likely that your 'taxed into oblivion' is still lower than what the middle class pays in Australia.
  16. Scotty David Codey (61)

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    BH,

    I think the issue with American society in the case of charity, or to be more precise in the case of 'banding together' when something bad happens is that there is a big difference between the best and worst.

    The best are giving money, opening their homes, arranging food and other charitable things.

    The worst are seeing it as an excuse to loot, pillage and throw in a few murders while you are at it. Not to mention in the case of Katrina that the federal government was very slow to react by our standards.

    In Australia we wouldn't see as much of the best, but I'm confident we would see next to nothing of the worst. It may be reflective of the amount of haves and have nots in America, or it might just be a cultural thing (likely a combination of both).
  17. Scotty David Codey (61)

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    Not sure what you mean by these two. I agree that Howard was going a little further right than he should have, but Hewson wasn't even priminister, and the big reason he didn't win an election was due to trying to bring in a GST. I never saw Hewson as a far right politician at all (and enjoy his very intelligent commentry in the times I've seen him involved in the media). As far as Whitlam being right? Are you sure? The biggest spending priminister of all time seems a long way left of centre to me (not that I was alive at the time).
  18. Lindommer Andrew Slack (58)

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    I think Bowside meant extremes of right AND left and he was giving us examples of both.
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  19. Scotty David Codey (61)

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    Ah, yes of course. That makes sense now.

    Not sure about Hewson still though?
  20. Scarfman Knitter of the Scarf

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    Sorry BH, I consider the USA to be a failed state; or an interesting social experiment that has negative lessons for the rest of us.

    I don't think anyone needed the USA to teach us about freedom or democracy. But they have taught us about the right to bear arms, about racism, about ignorance of the world, about food and drug hypocrisy, and about stark, startling, inequality.

    I've lived there, too, and the place just plain scares me. I could go on - and on - but you probably get my drift.
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