The Difference Between Kiwi and Aussie/Saffer Teams

[Blue]

At 74 minutes Cheetahs vs Bulls, the Bulls (6 points down) have all the momentum and the Cheetahs are out on their paws. Wave after wave of lateral attack from the Bulls, followed by the replacement 10 trying in a mindless chip kick with a man outside him and only one defender (he should be dropped for six weeks for this).

From the 22 kickout they get the ball back and proceed four phases of lateral attack. NOT A SINGLE RUNNER HITS THE LINE AT PACE OR CHANGES THE ANGLE. ALL the non-Kiwi games I watched yesterday were exactly the same.

You can substitute "Bulls" for any other Saffa / Aussie team. The only exception being the Lions who apparently understand how to create space and use it. The rest are just bloody shit at it.

Now players like Kerevi do at times change the angle or straighten the line but it is not something the Reds or any other team are actually looking to do consistently (Tahs actually did it a couple of times after the game was already gone but for the most part they just passed the pill through the hands).

It baffles the shit out of me as it appears to be so incredibly obvious.

 

[ChargerWA]

People talk about fitness or skill set being the difference. But the longer it goes on and we fail to start catching them makes it more apparent to me it's mostly mental.

 

[fatprop]

I think the British Lions are in for a torrid time playing these Kiwi sides in the next couple of months

 

[Ulrich]

I think the British Lions are in for a torrid time playing these Kiwi sides in the next couple of months

Indeed. It will be a very rude awakening.

 

[fatprop]

Indeed. It will be a very rude awakening.

Yeah even without all the ABs, they will be all strong dynamic teams

 

[Blue]

The depth over there is insane. Look at the Crusaders backline. 5 of the 7 are players that most of us never heard of yet they play like seasoned professionals.

But most of all I put it down to coaching. They have the best coaches in the world. Henry started a process with coaching years ago and boy is it paying off. They are even exporting some of their best coaches and still have depth.

It's a golden era, that's for sure. Or is it just becoming the norm?

South Africa has a massive coaching gap. To me the Sharks and Bulls have the most exciting rosters I have seen in many years but based on the first two rounds I have little faith that either coach is capable of unlocking the talent and leveraging it properly. Looks like the same one dimensional, error ridden, unimaginative rugby we are so used to. And that's despite all the talk. It's seriously worrying. Australia is not looking much better to me.

 

[Sully]

It's not just coaching. Kiwi coaches in Australia haven't set the world on fire. So some of it must be with the players too.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

 

[Brumby Runner]

The depth over there is insane. Look at the Crusaders backline. 5 of the 7 are players that most of us never heard of yet they play like seasoned professionals.

But most of all I put it down to coaching. They have the best coaches in the world. Henry started a process with coaching years ago and boy is it paying off. They are even exporting some of their best coaches and still have depth.

It's a golden era, that's for sure. Or is it just becoming the norm?

South Africa has a massive coaching gap. To me the Sharks and Bulls have the most exciting rosters I have seen in many years but based on the first two rounds I have little faith that either coach is capable of unlocking the talent and leveraging it properly. Looks like the same one dimensional, error ridden, unimaginative rugby we are so used to. And that's despite all the talk. It's seriously worrying. Australia is not looking much better to me.

I do also, Blue. In Aus, the Reds, Tahs and Brumbies have rosters that should see them at least competitive, but they just don't play the game the same as the NZ sides. Not just a matter of the Super Rugby coaches as I see it, but must be from very early days onwards.

NZ players almost to a man are game aware and all have skill levels that can only come about with years and years of practising. Take chip kicking as just one example. When attempted by an Aussie player, almost invariably is either too deep and goes straight to an opposition player, or is charged down because it is taken too close to the line. But look at Barrett. He must perform more chip kicks that any other player in the game - just another string to his bow. And nearly every one of them results in retained possession, territory gain and often immediately in a try.

We urgently need to do something about our comparatively woeful coaching setup in Aus rugby.

 

[wamberal]

It's not just coaching. Kiwi coaches in Australia haven't set the world on fire. So some of it must be with the players too.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

Keewee coaches are experienced in coaching Keewees. That experience apparently does not translate too well when it comes to coaching us.


They are good at the game because they have always been good at the game. Excellence begets excellence, most of the time, that is the way of New Zealand
Rugby. At all levels of the game, they are just better at it than anyone else. Starts at an early age. Impossible to replicate.

 

[Jamie]

I honestly believe that it is a coaching issue and also a lack of leadership in general.

I was started watching the Rebels game with a mate who loves League and he said to me "Why are they kicking for goal so early in the game?" "I don't get this game, you would think they would be trying to score tries early in the game"

I thought about this and realised, Is this their game plan?! Kick for goal at every opportunity?!

Now I know the Rebels had pretty much no chance but you would at least think that they would tried to go for an early line out and have a go! Surely you were never going to defeat the Canes by kicking goals!

Coaching staff need to address this poor on field decisions, sure take the points but against the Hurricanes?! You know that they are going to score tries so why not try and score some too. Same thing happened when they got a penalty on the Canes 22 (6 - 0) Surely a lineout would have been the better option early in the game.

Fast forward to Lions vs Tahs, Lions kicked for touch of the first penalty early in the game to signal their intent (7 - 0) and again of their next penalty.

How are we ever going to get better at catching, passing, etc. if we don't execute plays in real game situations?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

^^^^^as things turned out they backed the right horse going for goal.

 

[Blue]

It's not just coaching. Kiwi coaches in Australia haven't set the world on fire. So some of it must be with the players too.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk

Agreed. But a consistent coaching philosophy through the age groups and into the pros sure seems to make a difference.

At least I understand from Kiwis I have spoken to that this is very much the case.

 

[Strewthcobber]

We run into the same problem with coaches as we do with players. There's more money and much more opportunity coaching other sports.

Sure there's the Wallabies as a lure, but Link, Dingo, Jones, Smith (RIP) haven't exactly left with adulation. There might be glory there, but would you bet your career on it?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Keewee coaches are experienced in coaching Keewees. That experience apparently does not translate too well when it comes to coaching us.

Simon Cron seems to have done all right. I think he has big things ahead of him, too.

 

[Rock Lobster]

It all comes down to attitude, how you want to or are prepared to play the game. Until the AUS and SA teams are prepared to play the NZ style they will continue to be beaten by them on a consistent basis. The ONLY team outside NZ who has attempted this recently is the Lions and it took them all the way to a Super Rugby final. Surely that tells you something.
I have spoken to current AUS super rugby players and told them they can't compete with the NZ teams until they start to play like them. Their response is that our players don't have the same skills and I tell them that is absolute bullshit. You can't tell me that playing roster for the Lions is any more skillful than any of the AUS teams. What they changed last year was their attitude/mindset about how to play the game.
AUS coaches and subsequently their teams are totally risk averse and until they get away from the overly structured game plans that were all in vogue 10 years or so ago, they are no hope.
I asked one player why he didn't utilize the same offload game he had in NRC games at Super rugby level. He said his coach would go ballistic if he tried that for his Super Rugby team and it didn't come off. I just threw my hands in the air at that response and therein lies the problem folks.

 

[gel]

There's been multiple coaches and coaching setups across all the Australian teams and despite this there's been a consistent slide in the skills of the players.

Across all the teams.........

With different coaches.........

It's not the coaching that's at fault here.

 

[cyclopath]

There's been multiple coaches and coaching setups across all the Australian teams and despite this there's been a consistent slide in the skills of the players.

Across all the teams...

With different coaches...

It's not the coaching that's at fault here.

True on the surface. But in comparison to the NZ model implemented over some time now, Aus rugby has not, until pretty recently, had any sort of centralised oversight over all coaching programs as they have in NZ. Looking at what the NZRU wants from the AB view downwards so the system keeps players coming through all the time. Not just the scrummaging / forwards systems set in place by Mike Cron, but other inputs into how players are managed with a longer view. Such as Dane Coles being put onto a specific programme away from rugby to bring him up to where they wanted him, given Mealamu and Hore were getting on a bit. Plenty of other examples.
We've had some rudimentary effort with Ledesma re scrumming and Mick Byrne with skills / kicking but we are way behind.
Of course, you are right in that the issues are more complex, but the coaching deficiencies across Aus rugby are a pretty big part of it.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Why don't our systems produce decent 10s?

In just about every position we've managed to develop players that would make the ABs at one stage or another. At some positions (maybe 9?) we've maybe even generally had better players than them. There hasn't been a key playmaker come through Australian development that would get a spot in the ABs for decades.

I'm excluding Larkham here for the obvious "development" reason.

 

[Jagman]

I don't know but last year I think the best 3 fly halfs for Aus school boys (including injured Blaise Barnes) went to League.

 

[wamberal]

I don't know but last year I think the best 3 fly halfs for Aus school boys (including injured Blaise Barnes) went to League.

Which is probably where they came from.