Following some of the logic here, the ARU should be putting more money into the elite private schools of Sydney and Brisbane because they produce lots of professional players.
The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby
- Thread starter Bruce Ross
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T
Train Without a Station
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It's hard to argue that they in fact to the majority of the development to the majority of the players, regardless of the sarcasm in your comment, isn't it BH?
OK, I'll bite
When does "development' actually happen
At a local club as a 6 yro?
At school?
In Colts?
In Grade?
In a professional program?
I would say in a professional program for most players.
Of course players need vast amounts of talent to begin with which they can thank their parents for.
Of course players need vast amounts of talent to begin with which they can thank their parents for.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
In NZ they don't seriously think about individual player development until post school, so say 18-19 yrs of age.
That's NZ, they seem to be pretty successful, but do not have anywhere near the competition for talent that we have v league and AFL.
For Australia I'd start at 16 yrs old as any later and we risk even more of the cream of the crop being poached to other sports.
Any younger and we're just pissing away our money, as players drop out of the sport/all sport, don't physically develop or go elsewhere.
Strewthcobber
Mark Ella (57)
Not much point to the Under 15 Junior Gold Cup if there's no development going on.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
It starts as a 6 yo.
If there are no 6 yo's, there are no talented 20 something's.
Obviously it's more about giveaways,and snakes at full time, than S & C programs in the early years.
Now I get to answer my own question with "it depends" but if clubs want to have "rights" or compensation for developing players, sign them to long term pro contracts.
To me player development programs is how some good young players choose one club over another (me? it getting a game and some pies, sausage rolls and beer after training while playing with my mates)
The compensation the clubs get is a decent roster
To me player development programs is how some good young players choose one club over another (me? it getting a game and some pies, sausage rolls and beer after training while playing with my mates)
The compensation the clubs get is a decent roster
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
At all levels.
But for your average Super Rugby player let's take the Melbourne Rebels for example.
I have excluded players who have not been brought up in Australia as they generally played senior rugby at ITM or similar level in their home country and therefore would not be considered developed by Shute Shield.
Cruz Ah-Nau - Originally from WA, played WA Schoolboys and Aus Under 20s, then signed for the Force, Norths SS.
Steve Cummins - Hills Sports High, Aus Schoolboys, Aus Under 20s, Eastwood SS
Colby Fainga'a - from ACT, played Aus Schoolboys, Aus Under 20s and JID
Scott Higginbotham - From QLD. No GPS rugby or junior rep. Played for Wests, Tornados then Reds. Basically fully developed by QLD Premier Rugby
Luke Jones - St Pius, NSW Schoolboys, Aus Schoolboys, Aus Under 20s, then signed for the Force from school, Manly SS
Sean McMahon - Nudgee, QLD Schoolboys, Aus Schoolboys, Aus 7s, Aus Under 20s then signed for the Rebels. Played Brisbane Prems in 2013 around 7s.
Caydern Neville - Never played rugby until joining Manly as a 21 year old. Fully developed by Shute Shield
Dom Shipperly - Nudgee, Aus 7s, Played Aus 20s, Reds, Brothers QLD Premier Rugby
Laurie Weeks- St Joeys, Sydney Uni, Sydney Fleet, Reds then Rebels. Likely close to fully developed by Shute Shield.
Paul Alo-Emile - QLD Schoolboys, Aus Schoolboys, Sunnybank QLD Premier Rugby, Aus Under 20s, Western Force, then Melbourne Rebels
Jack Debreczeni - Trinity Grammer, Aus Schoolboys, West Harbour SS in 2013, then Rebels
Tom Kingston - St Alosyius College, Aus 16's merit side, Aus Schoolboys, Aus under 20s, Sydney Uni, NSW Waratahs, then Rebels
Ben Meehan - QLD Schoolboys, Melbourne Storm 20s, QLD Academy, Aus 20s, Sunnybank Premier Rugby, then Rebels
Jonah Placid - Aus Schoolboys, Easts Premier Rugby, Aus 20s, QLD Reds, then Rebels
Luke Burgess - St Joeys, Sydney University & Easts SS, Brumbies, Waratahs, Toulouse, then Rebels. Likely fully developed by Shute Shield.
Mitch Inman - St Ignatius, Australian Under 19s, Australian 7s, Sydney Uni, Waratahs, Force, then Rebels
Tim Metcher - Gungahlin, Brumbies Academy, Randwick, Aus 20s, Southern Districts, Force, then Melbourne Rebels. Likely primarily developed by JID & Shute Shield
Jordy Reid - Manly SS then Rebels. Likely fully developed by the Shute Shield.
Nic Stirzaker - Knox, Sydney Uni, then Melbourne Rebels. No record of junior rep, potentially fully developed by Shute Shield.
Cam Crawford - Sydney Grammar, Combined GPS 2nd XV, Brumbies, Waratahs, Norths SS, then Rebels
Tom English - Waverly College, Sydney Uni, Australian 7s, then Rebels. Appears to be partly developed by the Shute Shield.
Bryce Hegarty - Marist Ashgrove, Broncos 20s, then Rebels
Sam Jeffries - Nudgee, Sydney Uni, Aus 20s, then Rebels.
Lopeti Timani - Tonga College, Tonga 20s (At 17), Bulldogs Under 20s, Waratahs, Southern Districts, then Melbourne Rebels.
From what I can see the following players would owe the bulk of their development to Premier Rugby. I'd estimate this being highest of all teams, as the other 4 teams would get the bulk of junior rep players by the players preference and therefore the Rebels have to look at the fringe players more:
Scott Higginbotham
Caydern Neville
Laurie Weeks
Luke Burgess
Tim Metcher
Jordy Reid
Tom English
Potentially Nic Stirzaker
There are some players that have been late bloomers (Only really Steve Cummins), but even then surely a lot of their development has come from State Schoolboys, Australian Schoolboys and Australian Under 20s.
The remaining players basically played age group rep and by under 20s were at least training in a professional academy environment.
But for your average Super Rugby player let's take the Melbourne Rebels for example.
I have excluded players who have not been brought up in Australia as they generally played senior rugby at ITM or similar level in their home country and therefore would not be considered developed by Shute Shield.
Cruz Ah-Nau - Originally from WA, played WA Schoolboys and Aus Under 20s, then signed for the Force, Norths SS.
Steve Cummins - Hills Sports High, Aus Schoolboys, Aus Under 20s, Eastwood SS
Colby Fainga'a - from ACT, played Aus Schoolboys, Aus Under 20s and JID
Scott Higginbotham - From QLD. No GPS rugby or junior rep. Played for Wests, Tornados then Reds. Basically fully developed by QLD Premier Rugby
Luke Jones - St Pius, NSW Schoolboys, Aus Schoolboys, Aus Under 20s, then signed for the Force from school, Manly SS
Sean McMahon - Nudgee, QLD Schoolboys, Aus Schoolboys, Aus 7s, Aus Under 20s then signed for the Rebels. Played Brisbane Prems in 2013 around 7s.
Caydern Neville - Never played rugby until joining Manly as a 21 year old. Fully developed by Shute Shield
Dom Shipperly - Nudgee, Aus 7s, Played Aus 20s, Reds, Brothers QLD Premier Rugby
Laurie Weeks- St Joeys, Sydney Uni, Sydney Fleet, Reds then Rebels. Likely close to fully developed by Shute Shield.
Paul Alo-Emile - QLD Schoolboys, Aus Schoolboys, Sunnybank QLD Premier Rugby, Aus Under 20s, Western Force, then Melbourne Rebels
Jack Debreczeni - Trinity Grammer, Aus Schoolboys, West Harbour SS in 2013, then Rebels
Tom Kingston - St Alosyius College, Aus 16's merit side, Aus Schoolboys, Aus under 20s, Sydney Uni, NSW Waratahs, then Rebels
Ben Meehan - QLD Schoolboys, Melbourne Storm 20s, QLD Academy, Aus 20s, Sunnybank Premier Rugby, then Rebels
Jonah Placid - Aus Schoolboys, Easts Premier Rugby, Aus 20s, QLD Reds, then Rebels
Luke Burgess - St Joeys, Sydney University & Easts SS, Brumbies, Waratahs, Toulouse, then Rebels. Likely fully developed by Shute Shield.
Mitch Inman - St Ignatius, Australian Under 19s, Australian 7s, Sydney Uni, Waratahs, Force, then Rebels
Tim Metcher - Gungahlin, Brumbies Academy, Randwick, Aus 20s, Southern Districts, Force, then Melbourne Rebels. Likely primarily developed by JID & Shute Shield
Jordy Reid - Manly SS then Rebels. Likely fully developed by the Shute Shield.
Nic Stirzaker - Knox, Sydney Uni, then Melbourne Rebels. No record of junior rep, potentially fully developed by Shute Shield.
Cam Crawford - Sydney Grammar, Combined GPS 2nd XV, Brumbies, Waratahs, Norths SS, then Rebels
Tom English - Waverly College, Sydney Uni, Australian 7s, then Rebels. Appears to be partly developed by the Shute Shield.
Bryce Hegarty - Marist Ashgrove, Broncos 20s, then Rebels
Sam Jeffries - Nudgee, Sydney Uni, Aus 20s, then Rebels.
Lopeti Timani - Tonga College, Tonga 20s (At 17), Bulldogs Under 20s, Waratahs, Southern Districts, then Melbourne Rebels.
From what I can see the following players would owe the bulk of their development to Premier Rugby. I'd estimate this being highest of all teams, as the other 4 teams would get the bulk of junior rep players by the players preference and therefore the Rebels have to look at the fringe players more:
Scott Higginbotham
Caydern Neville
Laurie Weeks
Luke Burgess
Tim Metcher
Jordy Reid
Tom English
Potentially Nic Stirzaker
There are some players that have been late bloomers (Only really Steve Cummins), but even then surely a lot of their development has come from State Schoolboys, Australian Schoolboys and Australian Under 20s.
The remaining players basically played age group rep and by under 20s were at least training in a professional academy environment.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
So when you lose the argument, you resort to cheap personal shots?
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
How's it a cheap personal shot to say in our pool, the only people who support it are linked to those that benefit it?
I'd say that point is about as damning as Papworth's arguments on the other side.
I'd say that point is about as damning as Papworth's arguments on the other side.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
You've neglected to mention that at least 2 of these players underwent significant developement at their SS junior club. Don't assume that just because someone goes to a private school their development took place there. St Pius at Chatswood went 8 years a one point without winning a 1st XV game and could barely win matches when they had Luke Jones and Michael Hooper in the team (I think they won 2 games that year).
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
Agree, it would be great if everyone could be developed.
If we're talking about investing in player development with a limited amount of funding available, then it's 16yrs plus as an investment to develop a base capable of progressing to pro rugby.
But it's also a leap to claim that the junior club got them to where they are (just as it is to say what they got at high school got them there).
The reality is that it's a little bit of everything but I'd say most of it comes down to natural talent.
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
It's likely they played in schoolboy rep teams. The point is these players have been identified and selected in systems not related to the SS.
I'm very dubious of your claims regarding how much impact junior club rugby had on this development.
I played against Stephen Hoiles when we were 11. Now I didn't see him play in the couple of years before that so he might have had no talent as an 8 year old, but it was pretty obvious at age 11 that he was an excellent player and probably had a future in the game.
Of course everyone needs a team to play in at all levels growing up to help their development, but trying to put the development down to any one team or location is just silly.
Until a player gets into a professional environment where they have the opportunity to work on their rugby full time, so much of it is just natural talent.
Of course everyone needs a team to play in at all levels growing up to help their development, but trying to put the development down to any one team or location is just silly.
Until a player gets into a professional environment where they have the opportunity to work on their rugby full time, so much of it is just natural talent.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Being selected in a Schools rep team,is not development.
I actually saw quite a bit of Jones & Hooper as juniors.
They did not attend a strong Rugby School,their village teams would have comfortably put 100 on their School teams.
Hoopers Village club included Same Lane,peter Gilmore,Tom Kingston,Hooper,and couple more SS first grade forwards.
I am confident no one other than Hooper & Jones ever made it to colts 1's out of their School sides.
where do you reckon they learnt their Rugby?
I actually saw quite a bit of Jones & Hooper as juniors.
They did not attend a strong Rugby School,their village teams would have comfortably put 100 on their School teams.
Hoopers Village club included Same Lane,peter Gilmore,Tom Kingston,Hooper,and couple more SS first grade forwards.
I am confident no one other than Hooper & Jones ever made it to colts 1's out of their School sides.
where do you reckon they learnt their Rugby?
T
Train Without a Station
Guest
So you've basically said that nobody else at their school had any talent, and then use their team's poor results as a reason why their school rugby did nothing for them? How can you judge that? If they only had 2 players talented enough to make it to colts 1's 2 years later how can you blame the result on the coaching and development?
Aren't village clubs and shute shield clubs different entities though? The village clubs form subbies right?
Aren't village clubs and shute shield clubs different entities though? The village clubs form subbies right?
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
You ever seen 1st graders do drills with 3rd graders?
The better players get no benefit.
And my point was more about the value that the village clubs added,that you are so quick to dismiss.
Logic would suggest that playing with a strong team against teams of a similar standard,will improve players much more than playing with much weaker players.
Bearing in mind that their School season was either 6 or 7 games.
The better players get no benefit.
And my point was more about the value that the village clubs added,that you are so quick to dismiss.
Logic would suggest that playing with a strong team against teams of a similar standard,will improve players much more than playing with much weaker players.
Bearing in mind that their School season was either 6 or 7 games.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
That make or break development moment often comes the very first time you play open age or grade rugby.
It's when the old gnarly prop opposite puts your head up your arse, or their lock hits you with a bell ringer that makes you feel like your spine has dislocated, or your centre opponent runs straight over the top of you without breaking stride.
It doesn't matter how many rep squads you've been selected in or special camps you've attended, they won't help you.
That is the moment that defines where you're going next, not your natural ability, what school you went to, or who thinks you can play.
That's why premier grade rugby provides such a stern test for any up and coming aspiring players before their found out at higher levels .
It's when the old gnarly prop opposite puts your head up your arse, or their lock hits you with a bell ringer that makes you feel like your spine has dislocated, or your centre opponent runs straight over the top of you without breaking stride.
It doesn't matter how many rep squads you've been selected in or special camps you've attended, they won't help you.
That is the moment that defines where you're going next, not your natural ability, what school you went to, or who thinks you can play.
That's why premier grade rugby provides such a stern test for any up and coming aspiring players before their found out at higher levels .
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