The Rugby Championship 2019

[Sully]

Same thing. Unmeasurable and completely subjective. It's the vibe. Who decides how high a players 'ceiling' is?

 

[Derpus]

Same thing. Unmeasurable and completely subjective. It's the vibe. Who decides how high a players 'ceiling' is?

Cheika?

I agree that he shouldn't be in the squad. But surely that's Cheika's reasoning, or something like it.

 

[formerflanker]

He was apparently with 8 other players. That is a brave mugger. Would have had to be very confident he was going to get away.

All front rowers!
The perp either had a death wish or a gun.

 

[KOB1987]

Same thing. Unmeasurable and completely subjective. It's the vibe. Who decides how high a players 'ceiling' is?

It’s well known that Cheika places a lot of emphasis on how players handle the training camps, which are designed to replicate test match intensity. It’s where some ‘probables’ have fallen short in the past. Perhaps he has placed too much emphasis here in the past however in this instance there are 2 other blokes overseeing the selection process.

I think in Latu’s case it really is a matter of if he keeps his discipline under control he’s up there. Even Fainga’a who is the standout selection at this point in time came unstuck under pressure in Argentina, so I’d say they have been weighing up the pros and cons of each alternative.

 

[Braveheart81]

The reality here is that every other option has only had a decent Super Rugby season at best and are all much of a muchness.

I have no idea if TPN is going to be up to it but it seems pretty likely he's a strong chance to be one of our three RWC hookers.

So Latu is battling for that third spot and as such it probably makes more sense having a guy who's been part of that environment before and has some test experience. You don't want to expending much of your limited resources on this position in the squad.

Cheika knows that Latu has the ability to play some very good test minutes and the biggest issue is keeping his discipline in check. Both his yellow cards last year were a result of an open hand slap/push after he'd been provoked. Clearly he's going to be targeted because opposition players know he is likely to react.

 

[Froggy]

Firstly, let me say I wouldn't have selected Latu, he hasn't done enough this season, and his discipline issues, both on and off the field, disqualify him for mine (unlike some posters, not forever, I am prepared to give people who genuinely improve a chance).
Having said that, I believe the guy is a terrific talent. He's a strong scrummager, has good ball skills, a good running game, he's a tough defender and is probably second only to Pocock in Australia over the ball at the breakdown. It's now up to him whether or not he wastes that talent.

 

[Derpus]

Firstly, let me say I wouldn't have selected Latu, he hasn't done enough this season, and his discipline issues, both on and off the field, disqualify him for mine (unlike some posters, not forever, I am prepared to give people who genuinely improve a chance).
Having said that, I believe the guy is a terrific talent. He's a strong scrummager, has good ball skills, a good running game, he's a tough defender and is probably second only to Pocock in Australia over the ball at the breakdown. It's now up to him whether or not he wastes that talent.

He tends to get pinged quite regularly when pilfering, even when supporting his weight.

I would be instructing him not to attack the ball too much.

 

[Slim 293]

He's often not supporting his body weight, which is common among players of his stature that like to attack the ball, and he's been lucky to have not been penalised more in the past.............

But I agree that it's something he's more likely to get pinged for going forward.

 

[Froggy]

Slim, I would suggest that's often the impression the ref gets, and so he gets pinged, however analysis often shows he is actually supporting his weight. He has his legs very wide apart, for stability, and given they're pretty short legs to begin with, that means his torso is lower than you would think reasonable.

Still, as Derpus says, if the ref penalises it, rightly or wrongly, it's still a penalty.

 

[TSR]

To be fair Pocock could get called for it more too. It’s the nature of rugby - you push the envelope at the breakdown and only stop when the ref is calling against you.

My issue with Latu’s selection is I can’t see how it is justified. It can’t be on game form - he’s barely played and when he has Fitzpatrick has been consistent first pick. It can’t be on test history - he’s had some good moments, but largely he’s been average at best. His throwing is the worst of any of the options. It can’t be experience - 12 caps is not enough to justify selection on that basis. And I struggle to follow that it is for training performance - wasn’t that the whole reason he was dropped from the Tahs last year and left on the sideline for a lengthy period. I’m pretty sure Cheika said so himself. So, unless I’ve got that hit completely wrong I can’t get that bit either.

I hope he repays the faith, I really do, but it seems to me he is very much picked on some fanciful notion of the sort of player he could be, not the player he has actually demonstrated himself to be.

 

[Slim 293]

To be fair Pocock could get called for it more too. It’s the nature of rugby - you push the envelope at the breakdown and only stop when the ref is calling against you.

True, although players like Pocock, Gill, Smith etc. generally demonstrate much better technique over the ball, wheras Latu rarely supports his body weight - usually has his knees resting on the tackled players, or arms/elbows on the ground.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

SA v Straya:

Ref: Williams
AR's: Carley & Dickson
TMO: Kitt

Argentina v AB:

Ref: Gardner
AR's: Brace (Irish) & Ruiz (French)
TMO: Hughes

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Kickoff in BA appears to have been changed at some point since the draw was published, it's now 04:05 AEST which I'm actually not too upset by as the originally-announced time woulda totally screwed up my Sunday.

 

[cyclopath]

True, although players like Pocock, Gill, Smith etc. generally demonstrate much better technique over the ball, wheras Latu rarely supports his body weight - usually has his knees resting on the tackled players, or arms/elbows on the ground.

This year, nearly everyone seems to have gone back to bridging with hands on the ground past the ball, without necessarily really trying to win the ball (supposedly the real aim of contesting), rather win a penalty (the secondary gain). It was a hot topic for refs for 5 minutes last year, now not so much. It was funny in the Super Rugby final when the ref didn't give a penalty, the contesting player won it, then lost it forward and conceded a scrum. He had to explain to the player they didn't get a penalty because they had actually won the ball!

 

[Up the Guts]

This year, nearly everyone seems to have gone back to bridging with hands on the ground past the ball, without necessarily really trying to win the ball (supposedly the real aim of contesting), rather win a penalty (the secondary gain). It was a hot topic for refs for 5 minutes last year, now not so much. It was funny in the Super Rugby final when the ref didn't give a penalty, the contesting player won it, then lost it forward and conceded a scrum. He had to explain to the player they didn't get a penalty because they had actually won the ball!

Unless you wanted quick ball to score (e.g. if you’re trying to pilfer the fullback who is isolated) I was always coached to hold the ball against the player on the ground so they can’t release and are penalised. I see a lot of players now doing this but they’re almost always resting their knees on the tackled player (I’m looking at you Augustine Creevy) rather than supporting their own body weight. The refs often pick up on players bridging but it’s much rarer they get the guy lying on the tackled player.

 

[cyclopath]

Unless you wanted quick ball to score (e.g. if you’re trying to pilfer the fullback who is isolated) I was always coached to hold the ball against the player on the ground so they can’t release and are penalised. I see a lot of players now doing this but they’re almost always resting their knees on the tackled player (I’m looking at you Augustine Creevy) rather than supporting their own body weight. The refs often pick up on players bridging but it’s much rarer they get the guy lying on the tackled player.

Last year, for sure, this year I have seen relatively few in the games I watched. Agree about the knee thing. Philosophically, I am against the "pseudo-contest" just to get a penalty - the game is supposed to be a contest for possession and I would prefer to see a good contest with the aim of the ball being in play as much as possible. Playing for penalties makes moneyball sense, but can't say I like it.
Naive, in the professional era, I know.

 

[Derpus]

This year, nearly everyone seems to have gone back to bridging with hands on the ground past the ball, without necessarily really trying to win the ball (supposedly the real aim of contesting), rather win a penalty (the secondary gain). It was a hot topic for refs for 5 minutes last year, now not so much. It was funny in the Super Rugby final when the ref didn't give a penalty, the contesting player won it, then lost it forward and conceded a scrum. He had to explain to the player they didn't get a penalty because they had actually won the ball!

That's the problem with a game as complex as rugby. They knuckle down on one thing, and something else slips. They'll eventually cotton on to the defensive line being offside, only for something else to become an issue.

Just the way it is i spose.

 

[Up the Guts]

Last year, for sure, this year I have seen relatively few in the games I watched. Agree about the knee thing. Philosophically, I am against the "pseudo-contest" just to get a penalty - the game is supposed to be a contest for possession and I would prefer to see a good contest with the aim of the ball being in play as much as possible. Playing for penalties makes moneyball sense, but can't say I like it.
Naive, in the professional era, I know.

Yes, the 'pseudo-contest', as you say, is a bit of gamesmanship, in some respects similar to firing the ball at a retreating player that is offside (although not quite as cynical), that unfortunately will likely never be eliminated. On the whole, I agree they have been laxer at the ruck this year, which is strange given that all the rule changes in the last few years have been moving more and more towards making the jackal harder.

I must say one thing I liked this Super season, and I hope it continues throughout the RC, is that they've stopped this automatic YC business for an attempted intercept. Nice to see referees more pragmatic about genuine attempts to catch the ball rather than the 'realistic position to regain possession' letter of the law rubbish we got last year.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

AB won't be named until tomorrow but Foster has pretty much said SBW won't play this week as they want to give his hammy the extra week to recover. So probably 12. Laumape 13. AL-B this week, 12. SBW or Laumape 13. Goodhue next.

 

[zer0]

Just hurry up and give me that sweet, sweet ALB-Goodhue combination. Outside Mo'unga, of course.