Union or League? The pros and cons for school leavers

[rugboy]

NOTE: THE FIRST POSTS IN THIS THREAD HAVE BEEN MOVED FROM THE NATIONAL U/16 THREAD; SO THERE MAY BE SOME DISCONTINUITY IN BOTH THREADS

Here's my attempt at a team of the tournament.

I didn't see the first day, and anyway haven't seen most of these players before this week, unlike others who follow the age group closely, especially relatives. No doubt some will think this player is better than the other one because they've seen them play a lot and no doubt those folks are right, but take this as just an estimate from watching nearly 190 lads running around the park on 3 days all trying their best and sometimes not able to.

9. Joey Lussick – NSW Schools
Big lad for a scrummie. Looked the steadiest under pressure.

10. Duncan Paai'aua – Qld Reds
Excellent ball runner for a 10 and scored a brilliant individual try today. Knows how to run a backline too.

11. Andrew Kellaway – NSW Schools
Played fullback during the week but was the only player from the state who the hardest markers, Queensland parents, had any regard for. Had some defensive lapses because of bad choices as fullback but showed wingers skills during the week.

12. Jack Tuttle – Qld Reds
Player of the tournament and put on a virtuoso performance today. He has it all: as fast as a winger, passes long and flat like Larkham, steps and swerves and takes people with him when stopped, tackles everything. Watch this space.

13. Tepai Moeroa – NSW Schools
Probably the best of one of several good physical centres during the week.

14. Bill Valetini - Victoria
Not a complete footie player yet but a top finisher.

15. Jonah Placid – Qld Reds
Had a brilliant week, especially today when he made incursions, Cullen like, time after time. Hard to judge him as a defensive fullback because his team was so dominant.

Not sure if I'd say it is disappointing or just a reflection of what is a more common situation but of the players listed in Lee's team from 9 to 15, five of the seven are all contracted leaguies. In saying that I don't know the status of Bill Valentini.

 

[CTPE]

Not sure if I'd say it is disappointing or just a reflection of what is a more common situation but of the players listed in Lee's team from 9 to 15, five of the seven are all contracted leaguies. In saying that I don't know the status of Bill Valentini.

Of the three NSW players named I understand that Moeroa and Lussick have contracts with Parramatta. I'd be surprised however if Kellaway has a league contract as the ARU have had very close tabs on him for a long time.

 

[Lee Grant]

rugboy

Crikey that is bad news. Tuttle is one not so contracted - who is the other, and how good is your "oil"? [Am guessing Kellaway is the other.]

PS: Everybody bitches about referees at these tournaments but I thought that there were some fine young referees doing the job in the tournament. Well done.

 

[Lee Grant]

Differences in opportunities and pay for school leavers in ruby union and league

.


Regarding the prescence of league scouts at the U/16 tournament.


They are always there. They treat this tournament as a trial half the time. They get it wrong sometimes though: Parramatta didn't want JOC (James O'Connor) because he was too small to be a league half back. Big mistake.

I doubt if Tuttle will be one going to league. Sat next to a close "source" to him for a couple of days, very close, and there was no mention of the Dark Side but a lot about the Good Guys.

I rated Lawless higher than you did (how many days did you see him for?) but that is neither here nor there. There were a lot of good big ethnic Islander forwards (or partly so) like Lawless and we know that others will get to physical maturity later, but there were some good 'uns.

Agree about the future of Manu if he stays in our sport (he has the makings of a league lock too). I don't want to put pressure on any lad but of all the players at Riverview during the week, he in the forwards, and Tuttle in the backs, looked the most likely to do well after they leave school. I'll leave it at that.

It's bad news that there are 5 of those backs I nominated going to league but there were plenty of others not mentioned. In the last few days I have been joshing with Queensland parents, who I like sitting around at these shindigs, that Qld rugby is going to have a problem in a few years time fitting everybody in, as I seem to be saying every year. They all grinned good naturedly but apart from one parent, nobody mentioned that his kid was going to the NRL, but it looks like there will be more room there in the future than I was thinking yesterday.

Most agreed that nobody could blame boys for taking up employment in the other code. Most lads had played both sports as there were more opportunities with more clubs in league and that compared poorly with the narrow path for only the cream of the cream in union. Something like the league Toyota Cup would be a boon to union one gent said and agreed with me that that would flow naturally into the U/20 schedule the following year.

There was mention too that in the past some of the elite lads who stayed in union found out that they didn't get enough game time in a decent level of rugby. Even grade was of a low standard according to them and they didn't get the benefit of playing with and against better players.


But this is the U/16 thread? I have digressed.

 

[hotman]

a few boys mentioned from both qld teams are already contracted with nrl teams, and play union mainly because of school

 

[International Badboy]

sought of off topic but what sought of pay if any are these boys on if they are with a club? i am of the understanding that money had something to do with lussick playing for parra instead of his home club manly ???

 

[Newbie]

On the Money!

Know for certain after conversations with the broncos football people that 10 Paai'aua and 15 Placid are broncos boys. As CTPE said 9 Joey and 13 Tepai are with Parramatta. And was told (not sure 100% sure of it's accuracy) that the storm were after 14. Bill and the Vic outside centre also. Added to that Broncos also have the other reds centre Corcoran and the other schools centre Milne is with the Roosters.

Rugboy,

I have heard the same about the Storm chasing those you mention as well!

I must admit I am surprised about Lussick going to Parra. From my understanding he (and his family for that matter) have close ties to the Sea Eagles. If it is the case then I would be quite confident that a commercial sum of money changed hands!

Parra are not backward in coming forward when spending money to secure (what they believe to be) adolecent prodigies gentlemen. To give you a very recent example there is young lad at the Bulldogs called David Klemmer (Australian Schools representative and all that who happened to also make Toyota Cup). As it stands the lad's only desire is to be a Bulldog and as a consequence he turned down approximately $100K to go to Parra next season(and yes he is that good, Google him and see)!

Milne I believe might stay with rugby. The Roosters have been stringing him along to a point where he will eventually tell them to go and stick it! Given who the recruitment/player list manager is who could blame him (lets just say that this person was at the Melbourne Storm during the scandal years). Milne was also pretty upset at not making the NSWRL U16's this year!

Regards,
Newbie.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Lee - about your last post

They would make more money in union and wouldn't get the shit bashed out of them week in week out: Mattai for isntance would not get away with a knees first tackle in union. What's you take on the income difference?

 

[CTPE]

Rugboy,

I have heard the same about the Storm chasing those you mention as well!

I must admit I am surprised about Lussick going to Parra. From my understanding he (and his family for that matter) have close ties to the Sea Eagles. If it is the case then I would be quite confident that a commercial sum of money changed hands!

Parra are not backward in coming forward when spending money to secure (what they believe to be) adolecent prodigies gentlemen. To give you a very recent example there is young lad at the Bulldogs called David Klemmer (Australian Schools representative and all that who happened to also make Toyota Cup). As it stands the lad's only desire is to be a Bulldog and as a consequence he turned down approximately $100K to go to Parra next season(and yes he is that good, Google him and see)!

Milne I believe might stay with rugby. The Roosters have been stringing him along to a point where he will eventually tell them to go and stick it! Given who the recruitment/player list manager is who could blame him (lets just say that this person was at the Melbourne Storm during the scandal years). Milne was also pretty upset at not making the NSWRL U16's this year!

Regards,
Newbie.

NEWBIE this is an edited version from an article in the Manly Daily on 13 June 2011

Manly teen captain picked off by Parramatta in massive deal

SEA Eagles recruitment guru Noel Cleal has accused rivals Parramatta of seeking revenge on the club by throwing big bucks at the 16-year-old captain of Manly’s Harold Matthews team.

Halfback Joey Lussick, a Beacon Hill junior and younger brother of rising Manly forward Darcy, received a massive deal from the Eels that was just too good to refuse.

“I think it is an attempt to try and get something back at us,” Cleal said.

“They are responding to the success we have had with Parramatta juniors.”

“Joey is a good young player and we just got beaten by the size of the offer,” Cleal said.

“They threw five times the money that we had and they have five times the amount to spend on their second-tier budget than we do. “So we weren’t even in a bull’s roar of matching their offer.”

Cleal said the same thing happened when the Sea Eagles lost forwards Jared Waerea-Hargreaves and Lama Tasi to the Roosters.

“That is the nature of the beast, we have a limited budget that we have to stick to.”

On another matter I know from your previous posts that your quite a Milne fan. Whilst he certainly has plenty of talent I thought that his defence was pretty ordinary at the Nationals particularly in the final against Qld Reds. I don't think it is necessarily a technique issue but has more to do with his decisionmaking. He had a lot of traffic running the channels either side of him and got caught out on quite a number of occasions ending up grabbing at opponents rather than getting a decent shot on them. Mind you he wasn't the only Schools or Sydney back for that matter whose poor defence contributed to the leaking of plenty of points out wide.

 

[Lee Grant]

Inside Shoulder

Don't know anything about what money the young blokes get in either code. Newbie's contention that a junior got offered $100K by Parramatta is a fabulous amount for an U/20s player and no union player would get that playing in a junior competition.

They would make more money in union and wouldn't get the shit bashed out of them week in week out:

It would be a lot tougher in league as you say. Perhaps you are referring to my remark about young union players not getting enough game time at a decent level of rugby. I know of a case of a young Reds player who got on the park later in the Super season and regretted that he hadn't had enough hard rugby.

There is more to it than earning money: the young rugby lads want to play footie; decent footie, not just to get on the park in the senior side. The young elite league guys don't have this problem.

 

[magpie4ever]

Rugboy,

Parra are not backward in coming forward when spending money to secure (what they believe to be) adolecent prodigies gentlemen. To give you a very recent example there is young lad at the Bulldogs called David Klemmer (Australian Schools representative and all that who happened to also make Toyota Cup). As it stands the lad's only desire is to be a Bulldog and as a consequence he turned down approximately $100K to go to Parra next season(and yes he is that good, Google him and see)!

Regards,
Newbie.

Without trying to downgrade Lord Newbie's comments and not being a Parramatta or Canterbury fan, if the quote above is true and I have no doubt it is; it should be pointed out that if this young bloke was offered $100k it was as a tier 1 player so he would be in the top 25 players salary cap. In other words, not there to play U20s (NYC), therefore it is only sightly above what a rookie 1st grader would expect

 

[Dingdong]

[On another matter I know from your previous posts that your quite a Milne fan. Whilst he certainly has plenty of talent I thought that his defence was pretty ordinary at the Nationals particularly in the final against Qld Reds. I don't think it is necessarily a technique issue but has more to do with his decisionmaking. He had a lot of traffic running the channels either side of him and got caught out on quite a number of occasions ending up grabbing at opponents rather than getting a decent shot on them. Mind you he wasn't the only Schools or Sydney back for that matter whose poor defence contributed to the leaking of plenty of points out wide.[/QUOTE][


]100 % agree. I've watched Milne play league a few times and was very impressed with his defense. On one occassion I witnessed him mark up on a boy called DJ Harris , Milne kept DJ out of the game with his front on 1 on 1 tackling. As we all know backs defense is so much different in Union. Defenders need to make decisions quicker and more often with multilple attackers running varying angles in Union. Milne does not have the ability to effectively cope with this at this stage in his developement. It was obvious from the first trial of these problems yet the coaches played him anyway. I said it before and I'll say it again. The schools team would have been infinetly better off with Tepai at 12, AK (Andrew Kellaway) at 13 and either Cochrane or Delore at 15. I hope young Milne does stay in our game and could see him becoming a real talent with the right coaching. There has also been discussion about Joey Lussick and his League contract. I think Joey is wonderful attacking players of imense talent. I also know for a fact that at least 2 HM teams identified him as a weak defender and targeted him this year. I watched all of the schools game and can say that quite a few tries scored against schools were directly attributed to his avoidence of contact. The apparent "fact" he (or any other 16 y.o)is being payed a considerable amount of money to play a game so dependent on defense astounds me. As important as attack is in both codes, so is defense.

 

[magpie4ever]

[On another matter I know from your previous posts that your quite a Milne fan. Whilst he certainly has plenty of talent I thought that his defence was pretty ordinary at the Nationals particularly in the final against Qld Reds. I don't think it is necessarily a technique issue but has more to do with his decisionmaking. He had a lot of traffic running the channels either side of him and got caught out on quite a number of occasions ending up grabbing at opponents rather than getting a decent shot on them. Mind you he wasn't the only Schools or Sydney back for that matter whose poor defence contributed to the leaking of plenty of points out wide.

[


]100 % agree. I've watched Milne play league a few times and was very impressed with his defense. On one occassion I witnessed him mark up on a boy called DJ Harris , Milne kept DJ out of the game with his front on 1 on 1 tackling. As we all know backs defense is so much different in Union. Defenders need to make decisions quicker and more often with multilple attackers running varying angles in Union. Milne does not have the ability to effectively cope with this at this stage in his developement. It was obvious from the first trial of these problems yet the coaches played him anyway. I said it before and I'll say it again. The schools team would have been infinetly better off with Tepai at 12, AK (Andrew Kellaway) at 13 and either Cochrane or Delore at 15. I hope young Milne does stay in our game and could see him becoming a real talent with the right coaching. There has also been discussion about Joey Lussick and his League contract. I think Joey is wonderful attacking players of imense talent. I also know for a fact that at least 2 HM teams identified him as a weak defender and targeted him this year. I watched all of the schools game and can say that quite a few tries scored against schools were directly attributed to his avoidence of contact. The apparent "fact" he (or any other 16 y.o)is being payed a considerable amount of money to play a game so dependent on defense astounds me. As important as attack is in both codes, so is defense.[/QUOTE]

I only seen Joe Lussick at the NSW school titles playing half & 5/8 with the GPS side. This side was dominant although they did not play the CCC team. He looked a good footballer without being put under pressure.

The results from 2011 Harold Matts showed Manly did not finish in the Top 8, so it is a big call by Parramatta.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Inside Shoulder

Don't know anything about what money the young blokes get in either code. Newbie's contention that a junior got offered $100K by Parramatta is a fabulous amount for an U/20s player and no union player would get that playing in a junior competition.

It would be a lot tougher in league as you say. Perhaps you are referring to my remark about young union players not getting enough game time at a decent level of rugby. I know of a case of a young Reds player who got on the park later in the Super season and regretted that he hadn't had enough hard rugby.

There is more to it than earning money: the young rugby lads want to play footie; decent footie, not just to get on the park in the senior side. The young elite league guys don't have this problem.

at $100k i have no difficulty accepting that this is more than he would be paid in academy or other junior rugby stuff but 100k seems a bit rich for 2 reasons: salary cap and other players.
the salary cap may not apply depending on the level he plays at but it exceeds what a sometime first grader would be getting given the salary cap and i wouldnt have thought that would be good for club morale

 

[rugboy]

at $100k i have no difficulty accepting that this is more than he would be paid in academy or other junior rugby stuff but 100k seems a bit rich for 2 reasons: salary cap and other players.
the salary cap may not apply depending on the level he plays at but it exceeds what a sometime first grader would be getting given the salary cap and i wouldnt have thought that would be good for club morale

These amounts are becoming more common and have been happening for a few years. Will Hopoate was paid $100k at 18 based on his potential although with the 20s comp many more players are earning over $50k before they play grade. In regards to the above quote this will count towards the salary cap. The cap includes the top 25 salaries regardless of what grade they play. The next 25 salaries go in the second tier cap of $250k in theory your top grade should use the 4.2 mil salary cap and the next 25 second tier is for your 20s team although clubs now are spending big on potential stars.

As mentioned these sorts of wages are very enticing for what they can earn in union, especially for those from less affluent areas.

 

[Newbie]

For the Record!

at $100k i have no difficulty accepting that this is more than he would be paid in academy or other junior rugby stuff but 100k seems a bit rich for 2 reasons: salary cap and other players.
the salary cap may not apply depending on the level he plays at but it exceeds what a sometime first grader would be getting given the salary cap and i wouldnt have thought that would be good for club morale

Gentlemen,

Let me set the record straight. When I stated $100K, I perhaps should have stated that it was for more than one season. In all likelihood it was probably for 2/3 years. I would say two given who this player is! Nevertheless, this is not an uncommon amount that NRL clubs are willing to pay for prodigious juniors (especially those who have made higher representative honours like Australian Schoolboys). Let me assure you that league pays well for those juniors it believes will make the grade!

For a very recent example of the above please Google a lad called 'Matthew Groat'. Young Mr Groat graduated from St Greg's Campbelltown last year and made his debut for the Tigers in this year's NRL finals series. Not bad for a 19 year old!

Not long after the ASSRL U/18’s Championship several weeks ago a young lad by the name of Brendan Santi signed with the Tigers for 3 years at $50K a season. Santi’s representative record prior to signing with the Tigers was NSWRL U/16’s, NSWRL U/18’s, NSWCHS U/18’s, and Australian Schoolboys U/18’s. The lad I had previously mentioned, Matthew Groat, had the same honours (with the exception of representing NSWCCC instead of NSWCHS).

Magpie is right with respect to the amounts that some Harold Matthews lads earn, however only the cream of the crop are paid this amount (which is approximately 5%). These are the boys that are contracted players. In addition these boys also earn bonuses of $1-3K for making various NSW and Australian representative teams.

What I have stated is information that is readily ascertainable!

Regards,
Newbie

 

[Newbie]

As for Tepai, at the risk of getting absolutely howled down, does anyone see him ever making a move to no 8? Would love to see his size and skills put to more constant use in closer.

CTPE,

Your not alone on an island on this one my friend! Notwithstanding it's a different code, the Parramatta HM coach had Tepai in the forwards. He used to play him at full-back in last year's Harold Matts side!

Ironically the Parramatta HM coach also happens to be a teacher at TKS!

Regards,
Newbie.

 

[Newbie]

Without trying to downgrade Lord Newbie's comments and not being a Parramatta or Canterbury fan, if the quote above is true and I have no doubt it is; it should be pointed out that if this young bloke was offered $100k it was as a tier 1 player so he would be in the top 25 players salary cap. In other words, not there to play U20s (NYC), therefore it is only sightly above what a rookie 1st grader would expect

Magpie,

Long time no speak mate!

The money being splashed out there at the moment is insane; especially where Parramatta are concerned!

Nevertheless there are still the 'HAVE NOTS'. For example I know of quite a few Toyota Cup players who are only playing for a token sum of $1K for the season (obviously hoping that something will come to fruition).

I best give up on this topic now as I too am now digressing, and heaven forbid should I incur the wrath of the moderator who has the name of 'JUXTAPOSED AMERICAN CIVIL WAR GENERALS' ... LMAO!!

Regards,
Newbie

 

[Newbie]

... I've watched Milne play league a few times and was very impressed with his defense. On one occassion I witnessed him mark up on a boy called DJ Harris , Milne kept DJ out of the game with his front on 1 on 1 tackling. As we all know backs defense is so much different in Union. Defenders need to make decisions quicker and more often with multilple attackers running varying angles in Union. Milne does not have the ability to effectively cope with this at this stage in his developement ... I said it before and I'll say it again, [t]he schools team would have been infinetly better off with Tepai at 12, AK (Andrew Kellaway) at 13 ...
... There has also been discussion about Joey Lussick and his League contract. I think Joey is wonderful attacking players of imense talent. I also know for a fact that at least 2 HM teams identified him as a weak defender and targeted him this year. I watched all of the schools game and can say that quite a few tries scored against schools were directly attributed to his avoidence of contact. The apparent "fact" he (or any other 16 y.o) is being payed a considerable amount of money to play a game so dependent on defense astounds me. As important as attack is in both codes, so is defense.

DD,

I too agree with both your and CTPE's sentiments/observations as they concern Milne. From my understanding he longer plays Rugby; this of course is excepting School Rugby. For me this aspect has been his downfall! he used to play club rugby for Coogee I believe but I have not seen him in their colours several years! The lad need to make a decision fairly shortly as to which way he will go or IMO it will be a case of 'JACK OF ALL TRADES, MASTER OF NONE' for young Milne!

As with Lussick I also agree with you on this one!

Regards,
Newbie

 

[magpie4ever]

Magpie,

Long time no speak mate!

The money being splashed out there at the moment is insane; especially where Parramatta are concerned!

Nevertheless there are still the 'HAVE NOTS'. For example I know of quite a few Toyota Cup players who are only playing for a token sum of $1K for the season (obviously hoping that something will come to fruition).

I best give up on this topic now as I too am now digressing, and heaven forbid should I incur the wrath of the moderator who has the name of 'JUXTAPOSED AMERICAN CIVIL WAR GENERALS' ... LMAO!!

Regards,
Newbie

You are spot on with the 5k (HM) plus more for State or Australian honours.

Slightly off the subject, but probably on the subject; did you watch the NYC Grand Final? A high percentage of Islanders & granted the warriors were one team but if that is the best of the next generation of 1st graders - lord help me. It was no more then hard touch football -they were scoring more points then the clock at one stage. What happened to the belief "you build your attack off your defense".

If league keeps going down that road - you will end up with basketball scores. Someone high up must recognise this and make it an 80 minute contest based on defense again.

Concerning Groat - good luck to him but even Sheens must have noticed that when Bryce Gibbs broke down the Wests Tigers defense in the middle broke down, the problem is that defensive players are not given the kudos anymore. They are the ones stopping the half breaks, which stops the full break, which stops the tries. But the so called experts/commenters only want to talk about the attcking play and the one big hit forgetting that the player who pulled off that big hit has missed 10 tackles prior. League is now a hybrid game of gridiron & basketball - its crap.