Union or League? The pros and cons for school leavers

[Inside Shoulder]

Gentlemen,

Let me set the record straight. When I stated $100K, I perhaps should have stated that it was for more than one season. In all likelihood it was probably for 2/3 years. I would say two given who this player is! Nevertheless, this is not an uncommon amount that NRL clubs are willing to pay for prodigious juniors (especially those who have made higher representative honours like Australian Schoolboys). Let me assure you that league pays well for those juniors it believes will make the grade!

For a very recent example of the above please Google a lad called 'Matthew Groat'. Young Mr Groat graduated from St Greg's Campbelltown last year and made his debut for the Tigers in this year's NRL finals series. Not bad for a 19 year old!

Not long after the ASSRL U/18’s Championship several weeks ago a young lad by the name of Brendan Santi signed with the Tigers for 3 years at $50K a season. Santi’s representative record prior to signing with the Tigers was NSWRL U/16’s, NSWRL U/18’s, NSWCHS U/18’s, and Australian Schoolboys U/18’s. The lad I had previously mentioned, Matthew Groat, had the same honours (with the exception of representing NSWCCC instead of NSWCHS).

Magpie is right with respect to the amounts that some Harold Matthews lads earn, however only the cream of the crop are paid this amount (which is approximately 5%). These are the boys that are contracted players. In addition these boys also earn bonuses of $1-3K for making various NSW and Australian representative teams.

What I have stated is information that is readily ascertainable!

Regards,
Newbie

and presumably does not count to the club's salary cap?
what do the RL clubs do to keep these kids at school or doing something that will back them up in the event they dont make it?

 

[damo1]

QUOTE=Newbie;296266]You are spot on with the 5k (HM) plus more for State or Australian honours.

Slightly off the subject, but probably on the subject; did you watch the NYC Grand Final? A high percentage of Islanders & granted the warriors were one team but if that is the best of the next generation of 1st graders - lord help me. It was no more then hard touch football -they were scoring more points then the clock at one stage. What happened to the belief "you build your attack off your defense".

If league keeps going down that road - you will end up with basketball scores. Someone high up must recognise this and make it an 80 minute contest based on defense again.

Concerning Groat - good luck to him but even Sheens must have noticed that when Bryce Gibbs broke down the Wests Tigers defense in the middle broke down, the problem is that defensive players are not given the kudos anymore. They are the ones stopping the half breaks, which stops the full break, which stops the tries. But the so called experts/commenters only want to talk about the attcking play and the one big hit forgetting that the player who pulled off that big hit has missed 10 tackles prior. League is now a hybrid game of gridiron & basketball - its crap.

Cannot agree with this at all. Firstly , you would be lucky to see 3 to 5 players from each Toyota Cup squad graduate to an NRL squad. The First Toyota cup GF in 2008 was between Canberra and Brisbane. Probably 4 or 5 from each team has graduated to NRL squads ( Canberra - Dugan, Fensom, Carney,Croker : Broncos - Yoh Yeh, McCullough, Glenn,McGuire from memory). And they were the best two sides - most Toyota Cup players end up in NSW or Qld cup squads, or as park footy players.
So the NRL is not the Toyota Cup and many players are not at that standard.

I have seen a lot of "crap" World Cup rugby games too this year, probably more than Crap NRL games - basically anything with a northern hemisphere team is a cure for insomnia.
I like both games , a true hybrid. I went to the Brisbane Union grand final a few years ago and saw Sunny bank put 85 points on the Gold Coast in Premier Grade.
There was some slack defence, but some cracking attack I remember.
. High scores are not just a league thing, nor do they mean rubbish footy.

A little balance please

 

[Newbie]

Sherman Jackson?

General Robert E. 'LEE' (leader of the Confederate south) who was Juxtaposed to General Ulysses S 'GRANT' (leader of the Union north) during the American civil war!

A poor attempt at humour on my part, however some marks for knowing my history would be nice ... Lol!!!

BTW Lee this topic that we all seem to have digressed toward might have some legs in its own 'Thread'. Seems like a worthy topic given the commentary so far

Regards,
Newbie

 

[Lee Grant]

Actually I am a Civil War buff and took my username from both those great generals - one the dashing risk taker, the other the pragmatic strategist. A bit like different players in a rugby team really - a side needs both.

I have a few things to do now but that's a good idea. I will start another thread later in the day, but move the relevant posts on this thread into it.; so keep it going meantime

What to call it? Maybe - What Union and League pay school leavers? Any suggestions welcome.

 

[magpie4ever]

Cannot agree with this at all. Firstly , you would be lucky to see 3 to 5 players from each Toyota Cup squad graduate to an NRL squad. The First Toyota cup GF in 2008 was between Canberra and Brisbane. Probably 4 or 5 from each team has graduated to NRL squads ( Canberra - Dugan, Fensom, Carney,Croker : Broncos - Yoh Yeh, McCullough, Glenn,McGuire from memory). And they were the best two sides - most Toyota Cup players end up in NSW or Qld cup squads, or as park footy players.
So the NRL is not the Toyota Cup and many players are not at that standard.

I have seen a lot of "crap" World Cup rugby games too this year, probably more than Crap NRL games - basically anything with a northern hemisphere team is a cure for insomnia.
I like both games , a true hybrid. I went to the Brisbane Union grand final a few years ago and saw Sunny bank put 85 points on the Gold Coast in Premier Grade.
There was some slack defence, but some cracking attack I remember.
. High scores are not just a league thing, nor do they mean rubbish footy.

A little balance please

Granted, maybe I just pine for the days when the low tackle was considered the natural one in league, when natural footballers rose to the top grade not athletics who are taught to wrestle.

This might not go down well on this site but in my playing days, union players were called "soft cocks" due to their inability to tackle. Now it is the reverse.

They (powers that be) have deliberately taken the defense (low tackle) out of league it make it a more saleable product for TV (general population who never put on a football boot) where attack means excitement for the non-footballer.

I stand by my point that the game is a mere shadow of its former self.

I seen better 'one on one' defense from the russian & georgia players then NYC warrior & cowboys players.

 

[Dingdong]

Granted, maybe I just pine for the days when the low tackle was considered the natural one in league, when natural footballers rose to the top grade not athletics who are taught to wrestle.

This might not go down well on this site but in my playing days, union players were called "soft cocks" due to their inability to tackle. Now it is the reverse.

They (powers that be) have deliberately taken the defense (low tackle) out of league it make it a more saleable product for TV (general population who never put on a football boot) where attack means excitement for the non-footballer.

I stand by my point that the game is a mere shadow of its former self.

I seen better 'one on one' defense from the russian & georgia players then NYC warrior & cowboys players.

I couldn't agree more Maggie. I also think League commentators have a lot to answer for. When describing attacking play you hear them say things like " brilliant player ", "unbelievable skills " and "it's a miracle pass". WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!! Most times it all comes back to a poor first up tackle. League is looking more and more like touch footy now. My advice to any young league player is, if you want to learn how to tackle properly, play Union.

 

[Newbie]

A suggestion!

How about this for size, "League or Union; The Pros and Cons of Choice"


Thanks - I used most of that. Let's see if the thread has any legs.
Cheers LG

 

[yourmatesam]

For a very recent example of the above please Google a lad called 'Matthew Groat'. Young Mr Groat graduated from St Greg's Campbelltown last year and made his debut for the Tigers in this year's NRL finals series. Not bad for a 19 year old!

Matt Groat is a product of the Riverina, I think he went to Griffith High School before being nabbed by St Greg's. His brother is still running around for the Griffith Blacks. Trivia - he and Andrew Fifita have both run around for the Griffith Blacks before playing for the Tige's.

 

[young gun]

[
Parra are not backward in coming forward when spending money to secure (what they believe to be) adolecent prodigies gentlemen. To give you a very recent example there is young lad at the Bulldogs called David Klemmer (Australian Schools representative and all that who happened to also make Toyota Cup). As it stands the lad's only desire is to be a Bulldog and as a consequence he turned down approximately $100K to go to Parra next season(and yes he is that good, Google him and see)!


Interesting hearing about David Klemmer - a bit off topic, but he played rugby in 2009 and 2010 for Norths - he came along with his mates rather than was really into, but was still very good - you could see the skills he had, awesome - and he is a massive guy. Yes he was totally a one eyed Bulldogs man so doesn't surprise me if he knocked back money from Parra (interestingly enough, the mates he came with played league for Parra as well). Pity rugby couldn't get in his ear, he had the making of an outstanding no 6 or 8. Good luck to him, I hope he does well.

 

[McFlavour]

I couldn't agree more Maggie. I also think League commentators have a lot to answer for. When describing attacking play you hear them say things like " brilliant player ", "unbelievable skills " and "it's a miracle pass". WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!! Most times it all comes back to a poor first up tackle. League is looking more and more like touch footy now. My advice to any young league player is, if you want to learn how to tackle properly, play Union.

Okay you got that in reverse. A lot of my friends have gone to league and come back exceptional tacklers in union. Dont get me wrong, i love both league and union but i went nudgee vs state high in brisbane (top gps schools) and then to the mal meninga cup final with norths vs townsville (mal meninga cup is a rep season equivelent to sydneys sg ball). the defense in league is a lot better and it is very noticable comparing the two games

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Lets see union v mungoball for a junior

I'm sixteen, in year 10 and have just played in the national championships. A league club has seen me and has offered me a "contract" to play SG Ball next year - $5000 per year. I am still at school so I can still play rep schoolboys union ( a bit hard next two years as both will be on saturdays and I don't know if I can do both). So for the next two years I play SG Ball and schools. In year 12 I get selected for School Association, State and then Oz Schoolboys for Rugby but miss out on the league sides. Lots of games for the last two years but I am young and can handle it.

I'm leaving school should I play Union or League.

In Rugby I can play Colts for the next two years with a chance of playing some Grade in my second year. I am given the opportunity to get a trade or to persue higher education. I might get picked in the ARU Academy, the Oz under 19's and 20's in a Junior World Cup, maybe if I'm a flashy back even get to play 7's at the Junior Commonwealth games or on the 7's tournament circuit and then maybe even the Olympics. If I dedicate myself and put the effort in you never know i may even get to play for a super franchise by the time I'm 23-24. From there who knows. However, even if I don't make it to a franchise, I may travel overseas to see what the world is about and play some good rugby in Italy, France, Ireland, USA, Engalnd, Scotland, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay or any other of the 200 odd countries that play our game. Even if I don't make the top side I'm sure I will get a great experience

Hoever, if I play League I get to play Toyota Cup, maybe, depends on whether the club I have played SG Ball for has not unearthed some country prodigy and I am now a fringe player running around in A grade in Sydney or Brisbane. Lets say they haven't so I am a regular Toyota Cup player. I might get picked to play State of Origin u 20's. I do this for the two years after I leave school. I'm on about $30,000 per year - not bad for an 18 year old just out of school, however the chance for me to get a trade or some higher education is limited as I am now required to train and play 7 days a week. At 20 and after Toyota Cup what are my options. Lets see - will I get into the NRL side. To do this I have to be in the top 40 players in the NRL club (allowing for possible injuries to a majority of the contracted players). Going on recent history that would appear to be unlikely. So I have to play State Cup with all the other older players not considered in the clubs top 25 contracted players. No other representative honours and I am a forgotten man. I know I can go play overseas - England or France. Am I good enough and do i have to prove myself all over again. Limited chances and opportunities

If I'm that 16 year old I know which one I would pick

 

[Newbie]

The choice is not so easy I'm afaid!

Iluvmyfooty,

I believe that your answer is ultimately ‘CORRECT’, however you would lose marks for the way in which you developed your answer. In other words the ‘working out’ is not entirely correct to use an educational metaphor. Let me explain; in doing so I will address each of your paragraphs in order of their sequential appearance.

Paragraph 1
First and foremost, when a league club shows interest in a lad it is an exercise that is usually performed in a very flattering manner for both the lad, and his parents (emphasis on the parents). Each club will create a picture of fame and fortune before the lad’s very eyes; and the more clubs that show interest, the more prominent the picture! Generally speaking each club will usually introduce a current (or former) well know star, as there is no better form of enticement than to hear such a person as the star tell the lad how good a player the star believes the lad can become if the lad comes to star’s team. This is a regular occurrence in league, though it does occur in rugby.

Secondly, the SG Ball season starts in February and ends in Late April (or mid-May if you make it all the way to the Grand final) which is well before the commencement of the School Representative rugby season. In addition it will take a very exceptional 16 year old turning 17 to make the SG Ball squad of a reputable NRL club. Generally speaking a squad of 20-22 players are selected for a club’s SG Ball squad, and those not selected in the team of 17 for that week (which is generally the U/17 players in the squad) are free to play club league or union for that weekend.

Paragraph 2
Under the strict NRL rules pertaining to juniors no league club is permitted to field a junior in either the Harold Matthews, SG Ball or NYC (which is the Toyota Cup) competitions unless that junior is studying or in full-time employment. You would be quite surprised at the educational schemes that some clubs have in place with various tertiary institutes. For example the Bulldogs (I am led to believe) have an affiliation with the Australian Catholic University’s Health Science Faculty. Penrith have a similar arrangement with UWS. And for the not so studious, trades are organised. But for the truly talented or long term stalwart, I have never experienced or seen a rugby club go out of its way for average players!

With regard to representative honours in league there are more than you may be aware of and the same are similar to rugby (though not as numerous). They are inclusive of U/16 (State only), U/18 (State and National), U/18 Australian Institute of Sport Touring Team, U/20 Junior Kangaroos. As stated before they are not as numerous nor are the countries league touring teams can visit! And if you are good enough you will eventually play NRL (though a Super Rugby franchise would be better purely for the travel aspect)!

Paragraph 3
As stated above the NRL in recent years have placed a great emphasis on clubs educating their junior players and this is strictly enforced. However this in itself is not a fool proof system. For example player X has just completed his HSC and didn’t quite get the marks he required to get into the course he wanted to study at university. X has been selected in his club’s Toyota Cup team, so the club organises for his to go to TAFE as a way of bridging his way into university. X enrols in course that will count towards entry into the course X wanted to study at university. He does this on a part-time basis given his Toyota Cup training and playing commitments. X plays Toyota Cup for two years but is not good enough to make the NRL. X’s club does not renew his contract and X is out on his ear. Hopefully X is now a more mature person who realises that his TAFE course which is half completed is now his only ticket to a secure working future. Whether X completes his course (or not) is no longer the problem of his former NRL club; as far as the club is concerned “they have led the horse to the water, it is now up to the horse to drink”.

Ultimately success in either code will depend upon a player’s talent (and to some degree his ability to remain free from serious injury). If a player is good enough he will succeed, and if he isn’t, he won’t! Why is rugby any different from league? Ultimately both players will end up it park football if they don’t cut the mustard; ‘Bundaberg Cup’ for the league player and ‘Suburban Rugby’ (or lower grade rugby) for the union player. As for going overseas, not too many rugby players earn any coin unless they have experienced rugby at a provincial level.

Is it now so easy to choose? I would say not!

Regards,
Newbie

 

[Lee Grant]

Thank you Iluv and Newbie for some good input. I don't know enough about the league setup to know Newbie's info is right but I trust that it is.

Looks like this thread may have some legs because it's interesting.

 

[yourmatesam]

Coming from regional NSW, where I have grown up and played most of my footy, there are a number of options available to junior players in this area and also some interesting decisions to be made for them as the decide on their future in which ever sport they choose.

A talented Under 14 player in this area will need to impress coaches and ‘scouts’ at his respective representative tournaments and may be a part of a talent centre program based at a major regional centre. This would happen until the boy proved he was good enough to become part of the local S15/AFL/NRL franchise Under 16’s program after which he would have to move to either Sydney or Canberra to progress his footy if he is serious about it (or he may disappear into the local competition).

The majority of handy footy players in either code (AFL, League or Union) from this area move away to boarding school for the final years of school, although this is more true for Union and League than it is for AFL as the AFL tend to run their programs locally. The recent trend seems to be that the boys stay in their respective towns until they are about 14, then they move to boarding school, attend university and may come home for a stint between school and uni or for a run around when they finish their degree/trade. The length of time that they stay really depends on employment.

Senior rugby in this area is purely amateur. There may be some clubs that can organise a house, car or a job for a player, but in essence the blokes playing footy in this area are amateurs. The local league and AFL competitions are strong and pay the majority of their players for their services ($200 per win is the going rate for a regular first grader). A ‘marquee player’ would be signed as a Captain/Coach and could be paid anywhere up to $30k for the year plus bonuses based on where the team ends up or if their role is solely first grade or also includes reserves or under 18’s. The club would also organise a job for the Captain/Coach, usually a position with a sponsor of the club.

Junior players in this area know where they are positioned as far as selections go and they are aware that if they are not in some form of program by the time they are in Under 16’s/17’s that they need to start thinking about where they are headed for the future (Uni, TAFE etc) and will start looking at how they can tie sport in with their studies or trade works.

It’s an interesting choice because in this area they have AFL, League and Union to think about and all of these sports offer different incentives. There is decent money to be made in the VFL, good money can be made in local League comps and Union gives them the opportunity to travel (many clubs in this area have contacts in the UK, USA and Canada). Overall, I think the boys make decisions based on where their skill level is at and what they want to achieve in terms of university or travel.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

As for going overseas, not too many rugby players earn any coin unless they have experienced rugby at a provincial level.

i know for sure that players who have an interest in travelling and seeing the world can get a run at a lot of clubs overseas (maybe not major ones). As the main purpose is travelling and not playing professional rugby the opportunity to play at whatever level is always there. If that person has had some 1st grade experience in a recognised Australian comp (not necessarily in Sydney or Brisbane) then they will be able to get some assistance normally or payment to play. if that experience is in a major southern hemisphere club competition then teh payment can be quite good.

I know of young players from the Newcastle comp who have travelled overseas and, due to club contacts o/s, have secured some good playing conditions in Italy and Ireland (accommodation, jobs and some spending coin)

 

[yourmatesam]

I know of young players from the Newcastle comp who have travelled overseas and, due to club contacts o/s, have secured some good playing conditions in Italy and Ireland (accommodation, jobs and some spending coin)

Plenty of players from our SIRU comp have played rugby through England, Ireland, Canada and the USA all from networking with other blokes they know and being willing to front up and have a crack at another club. I played footy in Canberra with two Kiwi's who were doing the same thing, there are heaps of options out there for young blokes who are willing to travel.

 

[magpie4ever]

Okay you got that in reverse. A lot of my friends have gone to league and come back exceptional tacklers in union. Dont get me wrong, i love both league and union but i went nudgee vs state high in brisbane (top gps schools) and then to the mal meninga cup final with norths vs townsville (mal meninga cup is a rep season equivelent to sydneys sg ball). the defense in league is a lot better and it is very noticable comparing the two games

Newbie agrees

This is really a dead end street but I am basing my point on the NYC (watched occasionally on a Sunday, if the lawns are finished haha) games and especially the NYC grand final between the teams that finished 1 & 2; the defense was pathetic, pitiful, disgraceful, shocking, appalling and horrendous - get my drift there Mcflavour and Lord Newbie. As I said previous the russian and georgia players showed better one on one defense against world class opposition then the crap served up in the NYC.

If you were talking about league v's union defense 10 - 15+ years ago, I would fully agree.

 

[rugboy]

Lets see union v mungoball for a junior

I'm sixteen, in year 10 and have just played in the national championships. A league club has seen me and has offered me a "contract" to play SG Ball next year - $5000 per year. I am still at school so I can still play rep schoolboys union ( a bit hard next two years as both will be on saturdays and I don't know if I can do both). So for the next two years I play SG Ball and schools. In year 12 I get selected for School Association, State and then Oz Schoolboys for Rugby but miss out on the league sides. Lots of games for the last two years but I am young and can handle it.

I'm leaving school should I play Union or League.

In Rugby I can play Colts for the next two years with a chance of playing some Grade in my second year. I am given the opportunity to get a trade or to persue higher education. I might get picked in the ARU Academy, the Oz under 19's and 20's in a Junior World Cup, maybe if I'm a flashy back even get to play 7's at the Junior Commonwealth games or on the 7's tournament circuit and then maybe even the Olympics. If I dedicate myself and put the effort in you never know i may even get to play for a super franchise by the time I'm 23-24. From there who knows. However, even if I don't make it to a franchise, I may travel overseas to see what the world is about and play some good rugby in Italy, France, Ireland, USA, Engalnd, Scotland, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay or any other of the 200 odd countries that play our game. Even if I don't make the top side I'm sure I will get a great experience

Hoever, if I play League I get to play Toyota Cup, maybe, depends on whether the club I have played SG Ball for has not unearthed some country prodigy and I am now a fringe player running around in A grade in Sydney or Brisbane. Lets say they haven't so I am a regular Toyota Cup player. I might get picked to play State of Origin u 20's. I do this for the two years after I leave school. I'm on about $30,000 per year - not bad for an 18 year old just out of school, however the chance for me to get a trade or some higher education is limited as I am now required to train and play 7 days a week. At 20 and after Toyota Cup what are my options. Lets see - will I get into the NRL side. To do this I have to be in the top 40 players in the NRL club (allowing for possible injuries to a majority of the contracted players). Going on recent history that would appear to be unlikely. So I have to play State Cup with all the other older players not considered in the clubs top 25 contracted players. No other representative honours and I am a forgotten man. I know I can go play overseas - England or France. Am I good enough and do i have to prove myself all over again. Limited chances and opportunities

If I'm that 16 year old I know which one I would pick

I think a few things are lost in this, simple facts unless you wear 10-15 on your back and are an elite player at 16s then you don't have any of the choices during or post school that you have mentioned. Outside of these positions/quality you are probably playing subbies or A grade in a few years time. Or perhaps you are an elite forward in either code in which case you can possibly move through the designated pathways in realistically only that code due to the chasm between each as a forward.

So as an "exceptional" back you have the rugby pathway as described.

(to rewrite your rugby pathway) "In league I can play NYC for the next two years with a chance of playing some NRL in my second year. I am given the opportunity to get a trade or to persue higher education as training is mandated that it cannot commence before 5pm, and all players must have some trade or being studying to be eligible. I might get picked in, NSW or Oz under 20's in a Junior Tri nations. As mentioned you are also probably on between 20k - 50k and have the added incentive of televised games. As the "exceptional" back my position is under very little threat from any country prodigy.

Given there isn't much difference in opportunities between the 2 for an exceptional back. Only no rugby 7s or comm games as opposed to 20 - 50k and a television audience.

So once I turn 21.... I can continue playing grade in union with the hope of being picked up in the next few years by one of 5 super franchises in Australia with a 30 players and 5 rookie contracts to soon be paid under a 4.1 mil salary cap. For the League player if I have not been picked up by one of 16 NRL clubs (18 in the next few years) of 25 players in their top cap soon to be between 6 - 7 mil then I am off to NSW or QLD cup and the likelihood of a limited chance of first grade. Realistically there is greater chance of being a professional footballer (NRL or Super Rugby) in the NRL. Currently 400 contracted (top teir) players in NRL as opposed to 175 including rookie contracts in super rugby.

To illustrate of all the players who played NYC in 2009 73 have played NRL in the next two years. No where near this figure would have played super rugby in this period and I doubt long term from a two year window of colt players.

All in all I hope all the boys play the game they love. For the select few exceptional backs no doubt there is a greater chance to make a profession out of league due to the sheer amount of teams and contracts available.*

 

[Nusadan]

Not to mention there are opportunities existing in England etc to play for a club under a two year working visa available for young people...

 

[Newbie]

Ooops!

Quoting Lee Grant's editing of my post
Last edited by Lee Grant; Today at 09:04 AM. Reason: Newbie - you are driving me crazy with your big quotes of the previous post. It just takes up room. Regards Lee Grant

Take heed all! The General is on the 'War Path' and has space wasters in his sight!