Wallaby 31 players for 2015 RWC

[Highlander35]

I guess it depends what you mean. Numbers are just sort of numbers. Dennis and Skelton have packed at loosehead and tighthead respectively, despite having the numbers that indicate otherwise. When Jones and Neville started with each other last season, they did the same thing. Richie Gray has played all but a handful of his test starts in the 4 jersey, but he always packs down at tighthead lock.

As long as you've not picked 2 of Fardy, Jones and Dennis to pack down at lock, I think you'll be fine.

 

[Sully]

You guys are going a bit overboard comparing Jones and Simmons lineout stats. The Reds have four front line lineout jumpers how share the load will the Rebels don't.

 

[Strewthcobber]

I really don't think locks can just be switched around like everyone proposes. At least to my eyes, it always ends up with a dicked scrum.

Both of these guys are 4s aren't they?

Both wearing 4 but packing down at tighthead in the Reds v Tahs game at least.
Simmons has played both extensively

 

[Train Without a Station]

You guys are going a bit overboard comparing Jones and Simmons lineout stats. The Reds have four front line lineout jumpers how share the load will the Rebels don't.

And Jones missed 50 minutes of the season. Simmons missed about 50% of it.

 

[Floggn']

I don't think you're getting the point, the lineout,... it shouldn't be the main reason a player is picked..

Tell that to the Waratahs...

 

[Sully]

And Jones missed 50 minutes of the season. Simmons missed about 50% of it.

With one injury picked up playing for the Wallabies.

 

[BarneySF]

Made a similar commentmyself when interim squad announced. Someone said they need extras to train against.

If he's just used as a tackle bag then that's fine.

HE iddn't show anything in 2015 to warrant selection in this group, let alone the Reds IMO.

After the revelations this week I don't think he would be surrounded by close mates. Most of his old close mated are currently laying splattered on the road after being chucked under the bus.

In one of those Wallabies Video announcements a week or so back, Cheika seemed to really like that tackle that hunt did on Taquele and IIRC there were a few replays of it. Maybe the ARU said to him "There's gonna be some shit coming out about KH in the next few days, say something positive to get ahead of it."

 

[Gnostic]

Gnostic, thanks for those stats . Confirmed my thoughts.
Skelton can't jump.. At 150 kg is it any wonder. The stats versus jones are staggering. A 2nd rower that cAnt jump, catch or compete in lineouts.

I actually saw Skelton take a line out late in the 2nd half and if memory serves me right it went right down his throat.

Yes he is so big that he can suck in defenders but it is not dynamic, it isn't try assist stuff.

Anyway seems like he has his fans . Someone like Kieran read that is way shorter, lighter, but is dynamic. Haven't watched enough non tah games to pick the best 2nd rowers

Have a look at the semi-final against the Brumbies last year for dynamic. In one run he broke 5 tackles including backrowers took the final tackle and offloaded to Foley for the try. In that movement he made about 30 metres directly himself and set the try up 40 metres out with the last pass. He hasn't made the inroads he did last year because he is being tackled by at least two players every time he gets possession. Even with that he beat 23 defenders and made 26 offloads. That is more than most other tight five units put together. Shit its more than most backrows.

I don't know what you are talking about with the dynamism question. Any comparison with Reid is not valid, Reid is a No8 and makes most of his metres outside the 12. That isn't a criticism, it is the difference in role.

The other fact is that Skelton's workrate is under valued he is a genuinely dominant defender against any other player from backs to front rowers such that the opposition avoids him to a large degree. He is also the most consistently destructive player for opposition mauls simply by fact of his weight and reach.

Howill is the most likely starting replacement if Skelton is to start and the simple fact is he cannot match Skelton in any metric outside the lineout. If that aspect can be met in another position there is no way Skelton cannot be selected. As TWAS and others have said it is about balance, but I would argue it is also more about how Chieka wants to play. If the physical dominance game of the Tahs isn't the plan then Skelton isn't the man.

The stats are from the SANZAR site as well.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Also comparing Skelton2015 to Skelton2014 is chalk and cheese. He's played so many more minutes this season, predominantly as a starter and not an "impact" player. His ruck work is far more consistent and instead of standing off the ruck waiting for 'that' run, he's been more involved at the coal face.

Despite all the niggly stuff, he's had a very good season and improved those areas that some seemed to be so critical of.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Yes. Luke Jones has had a fantastic Super season, but let's not forget that he did struggle with the physicality and speed of the game at test level in his single opportunity. I know that was a while ago and he has developed since then. Hopefully he will have ample opportunity in the RC to show he is now ready. By the same token Coleman is also a very good lineout option with a bit more size and aggression. He should also be given a chance in the RC to show if he is ready.
For me a second row of Skelton and Coleman would be sensational if they have the collective mental fortitude to pull it off. Surrounded by experience in front and behind with the likes of Slipper, Moore, Kepu, Fardy, Pocock and Higgers they may just be the tonic to turn our fortunes around. Fardy and Higginbotham can call lineouts and we could have Simmons or Horwill on the bench as back-up.
You know Cheika is going to need to really shake it up a bit in a couple of areas to re-energize our 2015 campaign and the back 5 would be a good starting point.

I have a different recollection of Jones'debut than yours. He had only a small amount of time on the ground iirc, and though he splilt the ball the first couple of times it came to him, he did settle down and had a reasonable involvement. That's my recollection.

In any case, he has been a standout this year for the Rebels and if SXV form isn't the best indication of how a player might step up to test rugby, I can't imagine what it must be. Coleman (as with Arnold) is showing a lot of promise in his first Super year but neither have played consistently as good as Jones so why would either be preferred to the better credentialed player when they've not yet shown they can match up at test level themselves?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Yeah, I remember you posting about this in detail a few pages ago.

This strange expectation that somehow the coach owes it to fans to show us that someone new isn't ready for test rugby against the best sides because we don't trust that he can make that decision on hi own based on what he's seen in Super Rugby and on the training paddock.

Don't go putting too much faith in the coach and his ability to make good decisions. I have a lot of respect for Link as a coach, but could never fathom why he played Beale at 10 against the ABs last year when he wasn't playing there for a Super side and had shown no form there for some time. Let's not talk about some of the hair-brained selections by Robbie Deans.

But as to this year's crop of locks, I don't expect to see Coleman in the starting 15 for a test, but I would like to see him in the squad in preference to James Horwill for example.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Ezebeth, Retallic and the like. Bring them in when they are young and let them play and learn alongside experienced test players if they have the physical capability.
If we roll out the same forward pack from the EOYT playing to their potential we may perform well and get to the knockout stages. I think we need more than that to really do well.
I guess it depends on what the goal is for us this year. Make the semis and be happy with that?

Isn't that precisely what is happening with Skelton - or do you now consider Will to be the experienced test player?

 

[Ruggo]

I really don't think locks can just be switched around like everyone proposes. At least to my eyes, it always ends up with a dicked scrum.

Both of these guys are 4s aren't they?

Simmons plays both sides well. Look back at the Reds this year and you will be surprised to see him packing behind the TH and Horwill the Loose.

 

[Scrubber2050]

skelton has played some great Super rugby. His first Test (I think) was a beauty.

He should be one of the run-on locks. It'll be interesting to see if he can maintain that sort of form at test level - hope so !!!!!

 

[topgun]

And Jones missed 50 minutes of the season. Simmons missed about 50% of it.

and Jones took all of his lineouts from a crap hooker, what's your point? Simmons is not in form and has obvious issues at test level (being a dope included)

Tell that to the Waratahs.

I don't get what you mean here... if it's a snide remark about the semi final the entire pack was lacklustre at the lineout rather than 'lightning rod' Skelton.

 

[Beefcake]

Seen quite a few games at a number of levels where we have been blown off the ball, momentum built against us, and never regained. The only real go forward was a kick that provides the opposition the ball and we defend.

Even with Pocock out there, if the opposing team is running planned channels and dominating the go forward with players in support, or clearing out - & DOING IT WELL we need to arrest the momentum.

As on Saturday, players need to defend, and as seen when defending on the back foot it usually has the defender standing up because its hard to have low body height when you are going backwards.
Thus if the ball player isn't immediately grassed the D line is bent, multiple players are required - space created - points scored.

You can have the best backs in the world in your side, but it is about momentum.
You can have the biggest ugliest forward back in the world, but they need to get momentum.

As said above I've seen this tactic used above quite a bit recently - if i could make a suggestion, pull out a couple of reruns of the Reds 2011 season. I recall they were very very good at;
> making sure the first tackler grasses the ball carrier and that reduced the momentum.
> then ensuring there are always 2 players in over the ball and this forces the opposing team to contribute players and reduced the number of players standing off to attack / continue the go forward.
> next player hitting it up gets grassed again, and they often ended up attacking in D with this model.

I want Cheika that selects the team to execute the game plan, to take the points. At least at the Tah's game we struggled to shift the momentum in our favor.

Good point-

the NZ soup teams are proficient at this, timing and flooding thru to counter-ruck - so momentum is easily shifted. Smart & experienced players for example, will see the pattern of pick n go or short tip ons by the forwards, and then move in anticipation.

The wobs are not big on counter-rucks, yet this precisely what Pocock (GSmith & Waugh before him) thrives on - and likely to work effectively with a lighter pack

 

[BDA]

I have a different recollection of Jones'debut than yours. He had only a small amount of time on the ground iirc, and though he splilt the ball the first couple of times it came to him, he did settle down and had a reasonable involvement. That's my recollection.

That's my recollection also. he had a bit of a shocker in the first half, mostly because from memory he dropped the ball or got held up off the ground in the tackle on several occasions. It was pure inexperience. It wasn't so much that he was invisible. Physically he looked like he had the ability to make an impact.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Good point-

the NZ soup teams are proficient at this, timing and flooding thru to counter-ruck - so momentum is easily shifted. Smart & experienced players for example, will see the pattern of pick n go or short tip ons by the forwards, and then move in anticipation.

The wobs are not big on counter-rucks, yet this precisely what Pocock (GSmith & Waugh before him) thrives on - and likely to work effectively with a lighter pack

But Cheika seems to be, based on what I've seen from the Tahs during his tenure. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us flood the breakdown at times when the opportunity to reverse momentum or steal some pill presents itself.

 

[Joe Blow]

That's my recollection also. he had a bit of a shocker in the first half, mostly because from memory he dropped the ball or got held up off the ground in the tackle on several occasions. It was pure inexperience. It wasn't so much that he was invisible. Physically he looked like he had the ability to make an impact.

Don't get me wrong. I like Jones as a player and his skill set is perfect for a bench lock being that he can also cover 6. We are going to need a 5/6 if we have a reserve 7 or 8 on the bench.
I hope we see him go very well if given some time in the RC.
It was inexperience in his only test that contributed to him not going so well.

 

[Train Without a Station]

and Jones took all of his lineouts from a crap hooker, what's your point? Simmons is not in form and has obvious issues at test level (being a dope included).

Clearly you're all over current form.

Simmons gives away the lowest penalties per game of all Aus locks for 2015.

I'm also not sure how the lock leading for steals per game from a strong scrum is just "not in form". He's also the highest in rucks hit per 80 minutes.

The reason Australia has such shit set piece is because comments that the very best set piece players are "not in form" because set piece is completely excluded from the summation of their form.