Wallaby playing Style

[Caputo]

However, Poidevin is confident that with Cheika and McKenzie pushing their Super Rugby sides to play an expansive running game, Australian rugby will benefit from top to bottom.
While he believes it will affect how grassroots sides play, he also predicts that with the two biggest provinces playing the same style of game, Deans will be pressured into reviewing the Wallabies' style.
''The push through into club and juniors by success of the Waratahs can't be underestimated,'' Poidevin said. ''It is hugely important to rugby that the Waratahs go well and become a sporting entity that young kids want to play for.
''A very expansive game by the Waratahs will also push into club rugby because the players will aspire to getting into the Waratahs. And that will be the style of game they will need to play.
''Furthermore, the expansive way Queensland and NSW play will also put a lot of pressure on Robbie Deans. I am a huge supporter of Robbie, but it is time for Australia to step up a huge cog on how we play the game.''


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/mckenzie-the-right-man-for-wallabies-top-job--poidevin-20130101-2c492.html#ixzz2GleB3i00​

What Simon Poidevin is suggesting is that the tail wags the dog in playing style.

 

[wamberal]

There is no point in playing an expansive game, or trying to, when your forwards are being dominated.

Nor is there much point if your half-backs are not very good.

 

[TOCC]

There is no point in playing an expansive game, or trying to, when your forwards are being dominated.

You don't have to have a dominant forward pack to play expansive rugby, just a good game plan and play to their strengths and oppositions weaknesses...

The Wallabies have rarely had a dominant forward pack since professionalism, but have managed to play some fantastic expansive rugby through intuitive styles and tactics....
The Reds won Super Rugby on the back of expansive rugby, yet the forwards rarely dominated, they were able to outclass the opposition forward pack through smarter tactics.

 

[wamberal]

I agree that if the forwards can break even, then it is possible to play expansively.


However, I struggle to think of a Wallabies team that has been consistently successful in winning, let alone in scoring lots of wonderful tries, if the forwards are being dominated, at least in the professional era.


There is a vast difference between being dominant on the one hand, and being dominated on the other, the middle ground - breaking even - is where the Wallabies have usually been when they were successful. When they have been dominated up front, they have usually been humiliated.

 

[TOCC]

in many of the circumstances where the Wallabies forwards were dominated, i believe quite rightly the 'domination' could have been mitigated and even reversed if they had approached the game with a different game plan... One example is Ireland in the RWC, it was the wrong game plan, the Australian forwards played to the strengths of the Irish and not their own, and were subsequently dominated.

I guess this is also part of the point that Poidevin is trying to stress

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Is our pack being dominated?

 

[Quick Hands]

There is no point in playing an expansive game, or trying to, when your forwards are being dominated.

Nor is there much point if your half-backs are not very good.

Aren't many of these Waratahs forwards from Sydney Uni, who play a dominant forward style of play?

I've made the point on other threads, that the players who come through the SU system have been unable to replicate their dominance when they move to the next level.

I agree that you need a strong forward pack to play an expansive game, but its no good playing a forward based style in Shute Shield and then try to have the same players play an expansive game at Super rugby level. It's a completely different mindset and fitness invloved. If you have dominant forwards and you play an expansive game, your forwards need to be mobile and think at speed. If you are playing mainly mauls and pick and drive then your fitness is more strength related and there's less thinking on the run involved.

I'm not suggesting that the players aren't fit, but what you need is aerobic fitness, a certain midset and the abililty to think at speed or even do things by instinct without consciously thinking in order to play an expansive game at super and test level. To do that, you need to be playing that way at Shute Shield and Colts levels.

If you have most of the elite players, you'll usually win at club level no matter what style of game that you play. The problem is when you move up to the next level, what works in clubland doesn't always work there and it's difficult for players to change styles/mindsets at the higher level.

 

[TOCC]

Is our pack being dominated?

Watch the French game and most of the Bledisloe Cup games... Examples of the Wallaby pack been dominated in 2012..

Other matches against Italy, Argentina and South Africa are examples of where the Wallaby pack was debatably on par with the opposition.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

The French game, absolutely. Against the AB's, at times absolutely.

We went well against the Argies, Welsh, Poms and the home test against the Boks. Passable at best against the Italians.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that with the personnel we've had available this year, the pack has been far from disgraced and quite often actually played pretty damn well. Hooper, Alexander and Timani have all stepped up this year for mine.

 

[ChargerWA]

However, Poidevin is confident that with Cheika and McKenzie pushing their Super Rugby sides to play an expansive running game, Australian rugby will benefit from top to bottom.​

While he believes it will affect how grassroots sides play, he also predicts that with the two biggest provinces playing the same style of game, Deans will be pressured into reviewing the Wallabies' style.​

''The push through into club and juniors by success of the Waratahs can't be underestimated,'' Poidevin said. ''It is hugely important to rugby that the Waratahs go well and become a sporting entity that young kids want to play for.​

''A very expansive game by the Waratahs will also push into club rugby because the players will aspire to getting into the Waratahs. And that will be the style of game they will need to play.​

''Furthermore, the expansive way Queensland and NSW play will also put a lot of pressure on Robbie Deans. I am a huge supporter of Robbie, but it is time for Australia to step up a huge cog on how we play the game.''​

​

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Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/mckenzie-the-right-man-for-wallabies-top-job--poidevin-20130101-2c492.html#ixzz2GleB3i00​

What Simon Poidevin is suggesting is that the tail wags the dog in playing style.

Feckin hell, there is a brave man.

 

[Caputo]

My thoughts from the article was I remember Deans first statements were play was is in front of you. In those days was to de-program the Brumby recycle era. Now it could be construed as not having a plan.

When QLD were crap it came done to NSW v QLD matches and QLD won them all and would demand more spots. In the MacQueen era it needed to be more than the Brumbies. Now we need the Wallabies to be more than just NSW and Qld with 1 WF, 3 Rebels and 4 Brumbies.

I take issue at the 5/2 bench with extra No8 or a second 7. This means that has to be a premeditated game time to make substitutes. I prefer the orthodox 4/3 bench where every position is covered by a substitute.

The argument that our pack has been dominated. I do not believe they are being dominated but the real question/answer should be how our we doing at the set pieces?
Scrum I prefer Moore to TPN, Alexander in the run on team and in 2013 I want to see more of Palmer. Interesting to come into vogue THL a second row who binds and pushes.

Lineout who is going to replace Sharpe. To Make the Call and our locked down safe option.

Dual 7 in the team not on choice Pocock or Hooper. Hoping Jake White can improve Pocock at the Brumbies.

 

[Quick Hands]

My thoughts from the article was I remember Deans first statements were play was is in front of you. In those days was to de-program the Brumby recycle era. Now it could be construed as not having a plan.

When QLD were crap it came done to NSW v QLD matches and QLD won them all and would demand more spots. In the MacQueen era it needed to be more than the Brumbies. Now we need the Wallabies to be more than just NSW and Qld with 1 WF, 3 Rebels and 4 Brumbies.

I take issue at the 5/2 bench with extra No8 or a second 7. This means that has to be a premeditated game time to make substitutes. I prefer the orthodox 4/3 bench where every position is covered by a substitute.

The argument that our pack has been dominated. I do not believe they are being dominated but the real question/answer should be how our we doing at the set pieces?
Scrum I prefer Moore to TPN, Alexander in the run on team and in 2013 I want to see more of Palmer. Interesting to come into vogue THL a second row who binds and pushes.

Lineout who is going to replace Sharpe. To Make the Call and our locked down safe option.

Dual 7 in the team not on choice Pocock or Hooper. Hoping Jake White can improve Pocock at the Brumbies.

What you say makes a lot of sense and it highlights the seeming lack of a plan at Wallaby level.

You are spot on in saying play what's in front of you has slid into make it up as you go along. It's impossible to pick a team or a bench if you have no consistent approach to how you are going to play the game. A poorly balanced team and a poorly balanced bench is a recipe for disaster and it is usually an indication of compromises in the selection process.

You'd like to think an international coach and his team of support staff would have enough time to: work out how they want to play the game, decide on the players needed and then pick the in-form players who can carry out what you want them to do.

I'm sure that Jake White can improve Pocock, but at the moment, Hooper is in front in that race.

In terms of balance between states, I sure that that will evolve over time. There was a time, not so long ago when the Brumbies had a large slice of the Wallabies (on merit) and there weren't too many Waratahs there (with good reason). I'm sure the Rebels will improve and I hope the Force can, but they seem to be in an almost constant state of disorganisation. Long term, both need to have about 50% of their players home grown through their local competitions rather than picking up what NSW and Qld don't sign.

 

[liquor box]

What Simon Poidevin is suggesting is that the tail wags the dog in playing style.

It seems wrong at first, but when you think about it the tail has to wag the dog unless the ARU and Deans instruct the franchises how to play.

An example would be if all Australian franchises had guys who could hit drop goals with 100% accuracy from all over the park. You would expect the Wallabies to use this talent and kick plenty in Tests.

If the Super Rugby teams feature really slow wingers and centres that cant pass the ball to the outside man then you would expect the Wallabies to not spin the ball wide.

I expect the Wallabies to bring together the best talent from each franchise and come up with a game plan that uses that talent in the best possible way.

 

[Quick Hands]

It seems wrong at first, but when you think about it the tail has to wag the dog unless the ARU and Deans instruct the franchises how to play.

An example would be if all Australian franchises had guys who could hit drop goals with 100% accuracy from all over the park. You would expect the Wallabies to use this talent and kick plenty in Tests.

If the Super Rugby teams feature really slow wingers and centres that cant pass the ball to the outside man then you would expect the Wallabies to not spin the ball wide.

I expect the Wallabies to bring together the best talent from each franchise and come up with a game plan that uses that talent in the best possible way.

Spot on. We can all see it, how come the people on big bucks running th show can't?

It's coaching 101.

 

[Paradox]

. One example is Ireland in the RWC, it was the wrong game plan, the Australian forwards played to the strengths of the Irish and not their own, and were subsequently dominated.

..and they completely stuffed up playing in the wet...again

 

[Paradox]

I'm sure that Jake White can improve Pocock, but at the moment, Hooper is in front in that race.

Nonsense. People so readily forget what Pocock has done for Oz. He has massively influenced games in favour of Australia as recent as the Welsh series over here and let's not forget SA in the WC. Hooper is great but Pocock is still the best open side in this country (At the moment anyway).

 

[Dave Beat]

In terms of balance between states, I sure that that will evolve over time. There was a time, not so long ago when the Brumbies had a large slice of the Wallabies (on merit) and there weren't too many Waratahs there (with good reason). I'm sure the Rebels will improve and I hope the Force can, but they seem to be in an almost constant state of disorganisation. Long term, both need to have about 50% of their players home grown through their local competitions rather than picking up what NSW and Qld don't sign.

QH; I may go around a domminant forward pack here.
The game evolves,
I dont think coaching does - you have to understand the game, and the opposition, and then have your players execute.
I dont think management does - being a peoples person whilst holding respect and authority, is a key point to ensuring the players execute.

I recall reading albiet it long ago so I may have dreamt, back in the McQueen era he took an interest (an active interest) in what the states were doing, so the players stepping up were ready. Don't see that happening at the moment (management).
Brumbies succeeded at the start on other states rejects, some of these rejects went onto play with the WOBS / or followed Mcqueen (coaching and respect).
Some exemples of this -
Everybody has a different personality, going back 10 years ago or so I'll use Andrew Walker as an example, an incredably gifted player under McQueen coaching and management everything was kept in check, afterwards he drifted.
George Smith may or may not be an example, some of the people he hang around with went in a not so good direction. An incredable player and I believe his coaches of 10 - 12 years ago kept him in check. He as always my first picked, didnt agree with what Deans did, and hope he is enjoying himeslf now.
I will not use QC (Quade Cooper) as an example, there are others (Matt Giteau being one) - I think Deans has lost respect and is just after yes people that will simply say yes.
So with regards to the Wallabies playing style, with the ball in hand you have more control in regards to directing the game. So if our foward pack is on par this can be managed to play to our strengths. We kick it away????

 

[Quick Hands]

Nonsense. People so readily forget what Pocock has done for Oz. He has massively influenced games in favour of Australia as recent as the Welsh series over here and let's not forget SA in the WC. Hooper is great but Pocock is still the best open side in this country (At the moment anyway).

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that you always pick the best available players on current form. What happened in 2011 or early 2012 has some relevance, but in my humble opinion should not automatically result in a player's return in 2013. The 'current' form at the moment is Hooper in Rugby Championship and on the European tour and based on his play there, he is the form No 7 in the country and if you were to pick a team tomorrow he would get in ahead of Pocock. Fortunately we will have a lot of super rugby to see before the next Wallaby team is picked. Judging by what I have seen of both players, there will still be disagreement as to who is best after that. I just hope that they pick whoever is in the best form and not hark back to RWC 2011.

 

[Dave Beat]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that you always pick the best available players on current form. What happened in 2011 or early 2012 has some relevance, but in my humble opinion should not automatically result in a player's return in 2013. The 'current' form at the moment is Hooper in Rugby Championship and on the European tour and based on his play there, he is the form No 7 in the country and if you were to pick a team tomorrow he would get in ahead of Pocock. Fortunately we will have a lot of super rugby to see before the next Wallaby team is picked. Judging by what I have seen of both players, there will still be disagreement as to who is best after that. I just hope that they pick whoever is in the best form and not hark back to RWC 2011.

Two different model players wearing the same jersey.

• I believe Pocock posibly better suites the style of game Deans has been coaching, kick it away and be strong over the ball in defence. That aspect I believe Pockock is stronger.
• However Hoops is not far behind in this area, and brings another demension to the game when we / he has ball in hand - he has versatlity in his options either inclose to the ruck, or playing a little wider. In this regards I see him well ahead of Pocock.
• George Smith was better on both fronts.

My thoughts, each to there own, Hoopers broader skill set would enable a coach to vary game plans depending on the opposition (he is also the Form # 7) - this is something that has not happened, I havent seen alot of variance between playing the World # 1, or the world # 12 and there is a vast difference in the way both those 2 teams play. Sorry I have to revert back to Coach.

 

[TOCC]

Pocock is far superior to Hooper as a fetcher and providing physicality at the breakdown.. Pocock also plays the very critical role of protecting the wallaby ball.. This can't be underestimated especially when RD plays guys like Palu who are more impact style players rather then workmanlike. Look at the French game where the Wallabies lose numerous turnovers for a perfect example of not protecting your own ball.

Hooper is far superior in the attacking role, he has tremendous leg drive and acceleration unmatched in the wallaby forwards. This provides the Wallabies with greater attacking threat around the breakdown especially when Genia isn't playing..


Soo... They are both distinctly different players in the same position, who starts will depend on the opposition and availability of players in other positions..