Wallaby tactics

[Langthorne]

The squad has been selected and I think that, despite a couple of injuries to potential 1st choice players, the Wallaby XV could be in with a good chance in the tests. If there are injuries to certain players we will struggle (mainly Giteau), but it has ever been that way.

How can the Wallabies win against the All Blacks and Springboks?

Just going over their potential teams in my head tells me they will be strong, especially in terms of depth - which is the main reason the Wallabies will have their work cut out for them.

In the 55th minute, when the All Blacks bring on 3 or 4 fresh reserves of the same standard as the players they are replacing, what do the Wallabies do? Last season the answer was...nothing - just let them roll over and win. I think Henry really got the wood on Robbie Deans there, and he will probably always have that option (though I think the Aussie youngsters have the potential to even the score in that respect - not that Australia will ever have the overall depth of NZ, but maybe they could do it for the first 22).

The kicking game....where to start?

I can understand the tactic of kicking possession away in the hope of an unforced error, but the tactic does go against my every instinct. It is especially disturbing to me when the player receiving the kick is someone like Mills Muliaina. As a general rule, if my team was playing against him I would try to give him the ball as infrequently as possible.

Kicking (for the line) for territory makes sense to me.

Chipping over (or grubbering through) a defensive line that moves up fast makes sense to me.

It is the kick up the middle that distresses me. It reeks of a lack of confidence. ie "We aren't good enough for the other options, not that I can think of any. Maybe if I just boot it we'll win the oval ball lottery!"

I'm not too keen on the kick into touch after winning a line out in our own 22 either. "Oh great, we won that one - let's have another line out in exactly the same position, but we'll give them the throw this time". Maybe giving the ball to Muliaina wouldn't be such a bad alternative.

I think the scrum will be fine, and could even be a strength (could it really be?!).

So what does everyone else think?

Pick and drive, Maul, throw it around, play for position, grind out a tight win, contest every ruck, every lineout?

I guess any is possible in the right circumstances - but what should Robbie's plan be before kick off?

 

[Scarfman]

Well, I think it's too early to work on a specific game plan vs any particular opponent. But I would hope to see a few things.

1. Kick to corners. With Gits and Barnes, we finally have the halves to do this. But if you do this, the other thing you need ...

2. Killer lineout. Three good lineout options, plus Smith at the back for TPN's overthrows. Moore needs to be hitting them.

3. Defence into attack. It's all very well having a brick wall defence like the Tahs, but if you can't turn that into points, you lose games. Robbie has rejigged the defensive patterns to do this, however ...

4. Do we have the fullback to make this plan work? At the moment, the answer is no.

5. Lastly, speed as much as power in the back 3. With Burgess flinging the pill fast, and the counter-attack permanently "on," we'll get killed by the ABs if we aren't there first. This is also a problem for us, with Smith, Waugh, Palu, Brown, Mumm, hardly speedsters.

6. Haven't mentioned the scrum. 2009 might be a year of parity between the 3N and Italians.

 

[fatprop]

See old Crusaders tapes..................................................

No kicking out, back your defence

Create pressure in defence wherever possible

Attack from turnovers

Backs to work their arses off to create options for the receiver

 

[cyclopath]

The kicking will really come down to who plays where.
Barnes and Gits can kick (as Scarfy pointed out). Many of the others are pretty useless and hoist the speculator that Langthorne mentions. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) did this incessantly at 15, Turner, Tuqiri, Hynes all seem to also. I can't say I saw a lot of JOC (James O'Connor) kicking, but what I remember was not bad. He will be a key experiment - if he works out at 15, it could be a masterstroke. A 15 that can step, kick, make plays and tackles OK (especially given his size) would be nice. A bit Mils- like in fact.
I expect a big improvement from last year.
Gee I would have loved to see a back 3 of Digby, JOC (James O'Connor) and Tuqiri / Hynes / Turner. Some real conter-attack options there.
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is a 13 - my mantra!

 

[Scarfman]

Can you explain the no kicking out thing fp? Against Matfield and Botha (and Percy) I can see the sense. But why not kick it out and back yourself in the lineout? I know that I'd rather go up against the Kiwi lineout than giving their back 3 a free shot.

I reckon the kick to the corners is the single most misunderestimated move in Australian rugby.

 

[cyclopath]

Can you explain the no kicking out thing fp? Against Matfield and Botha (and Percy) I can see the sense. But why not kick it out and back yourself in the lineout? I know that I'd rather go up against the Kiwi lineout than giving their back 3 a free shot.

I reckon the kick to the corners is the single most misunderestimated move in Australian rugby.

My absolute FAVOURITE neologism from Dubya!
I think it's because most players can't do it - Giteau, Gerrard and Barnes probably the exceptions. SNK also quite good at times. Threw that in there for Scarfy!

 

[Utility Back]

I think it's because most players can't do it - Giteau, Gerrard and Barnes probably the exceptions. SNK also quite good at times. Threw that in there for Scarfy!
[/quote]

Mind you, quade cooper busted our multiple brilliant kicks of that nature...at the start of the season, before he started missing every tackle.

Robbie and giteau will do him some wonders i reckon.

 

[Gagger]

Great idea for a thread LT.

With Territory over possession now being the mantra , I'm also going for the cross-field kicks into the corners. Unlike the O'Gara's of the North and Dan Carters of the south, we've been sadly lacking in this department and I'm hoping Gits and Barnes bring what they've been doing in the S14 (as has Hangers and even Beale of late). Quade had this going at times as well.

I also like what I've seen of JO'C at fullback. He doesn't just hoof blindly like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), but nerdles it into space and chases.

More importantly, an area that I reckon we can also make our own is ball in hand amongst the pigs. Look who you've got as runners in traffic among this lot:
Moore or TPN
Benn R
Alexander
Palu
Horwill (when on form) and even the Seagull
Brown / Rocky (I would have liked to have seen a Mowen or Higgenbatty as well.)
Pocock / Smith
and then Burgo around the fringe

I'd love to see some close quarters rampaging with the odd Tah stylie rolling maul thrown in, sucking in the D and making spaces

Because, I think 1:1 in an uncluttered paddock, with a midfield that contains Gits, Barnes, Morty (even sprinkle with an on form Quade or Tahu, or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), LT, JO'C coming into the line) we'll have the wood on the others. This can either be from set piece, or some of Burgo's exceptionally fast ball.

We're not natural harem scarem counter-attackers, but at our best we can out-dazzle from structure. With scrum & lineout that's working (fingers crossed), why not?

 

[Biffo]

How about:

1. Precision at the set pieces
2. Speed to the breakdown
3. Muscle up at the breakdown
4. Ball in hand as much as possible
5. Support the ball carrier
6. Tackle anything that moves
7. Mongrel everywhere.

All assuming skills improve across the park.

 

[Langthorne]

Great idea for a thread LT.

With Territory over possession now being the mantra , I'm also going for the cross-field kicks into the corners. Unlike the O'Gara's of the North and Dan Carters of the south, we've been sadly lacking in this department and I'm hoping Gits and Barnes bring what they've been doing in the S14 (as has Hangers and even Beale of late). Quade had this going at times as well.

I also like what I've seen of JO'C at fullback. He doesn't just hoof blindly like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), but nerdles it into space and chases.

More importantly, an area that I reckon we can also make our own is ball in hand amongst the pigs. Look who you've got as runners in traffic among this lot:
Moore or TPN
Benn R
Alexander
Palu
Horwill (when on form) and even the Seagull
Brown / Rocky (I would have liked to have seen a Mowen or Higgenbatty as well.)
Pocock / Smith
and then Burgo around the fringe

I'd love to see some close quarters rampaging with the odd Tah stylie rolling maul thrown in, sucking in the D and making spaces

Because, I think 1:1 in an uncluttered paddock, with a midfield that contains Gits, Barnes, Morty (even sprinkle with an on form Quade or Tahu, or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), LT, JO'C coming into the line) we'll have the wood on the others. This can either be from set piece, or some of Burgo's exceptionally fast ball.

We're not natural harem scarem counter-attackers, but at our best we can out-dazzle from structure. With scrum & lineout that's working (fingers crossed), why not?

Territory Vs Possession - I think kicking for territory only works if it comes with pressure on the opposition's possession. If not, it is better to keep possession.

I thought the Tahs were at their best when rolling the maul, and picking and driving fast ball. If the Wallabies could do the same I would be very pleased. If done well, it can keep the opposition on the back foot and will lead to opportunities further out. The only danger is when it is done slowly, or the runner gets too far ahead of his support (or tries for an extra metre), or has no support - in that situation the opposition will have opportunities to steal. A short gain that maintains ball security is better than the slightly longer run that risks possession.

On the kicking, I thought of Beale too - he can really kick out of hand, with both accuracy and distance. Not that I think he is ready to run on for the Wallabies. He should do well in the U20s though.

I (almost) always like the idea of kicking for touch in the opposition half (and let them win the scrambling lineout ball which they kick straight into touch).

So essentially - no pointless kicks (and no outside backs who can't kick).

 

[disco]

Territory Vs Possession - I think kicking for territory only works if it comes with pressure on the opposition's possession. If not, it is better to keep possession.

Spot on Langthorne, I think the Aussies side always look better when the play possesion rather than territory.

Aussie side are the kings of aimless kicking so I think our back 3 this season should always look to counter attack 1st kick 2nd.

Another rule I'd like Deans to apply would be no kicking in the opponents 22 (especially Berrick Barnes & George Smith) as the amount of times an aussie side goes into the League mentality & grubbers for the in goal just amazes me, it's the biggest waste of possesion.

 

[naza]

More importantly, an area that I reckon we can also make our own is ball in hand amongst the pigs.

I concur. That seems to be their strategy - ball runners in the tight 5, a tag team of opensides in the loose forwards to secure ruck ball, and a 2nd 5/8th distributing out wide. I suspect this team will play extremely loose/expansive rugby. The thrashwank brigade will love it.

 

[disco]

I concur. That seems to be their strategy - ball runners in the tight 5, a tag team of opensides in the loose forwards to secure ruck ball, and a 2nd 5/8th distributing out wide. I suspect this team will play extremely loose/expansive rugby. The thrashwank brigade will love it.

That's spot on Naza,
Benn Robinson, Ben Alexander, Pek Cowan, Stephen Moore & TPN are all very good ball runners & Smith,Pocock, Waugh, Brown & Hodgson are basically all opensides & we will expect to see at least 2 of that 5 start in the run on 15 with either Brown or Hodgson at 8.

I expect a very up tempo game this year with Barnes & Giteau probably playing left & right side of the ruck.

 

[Spook]

More importantly, an area that I reckon we can also make our own is ball in hand amongst the pigs.

I concur. That seems to be their strategy - ball runners in the tight 5, a tag team of opensides in the loose forwards to secure ruck ball, and a 2nd 5/8th distributing out wide. I suspect this team will play extremely loose/expansive rugby. The thrashwank brigade will love it.

What happens when it pisses down in NZ or Ireland or some other place? We're farked.

 

[Biffo]

More importantly, an area that I reckon we can also make our own is ball in hand amongst the pigs.

I concur. That seems to be their strategy - ball runners in the tight 5, a tag team of opensides in the loose forwards to secure ruck ball, and a 2nd 5/8th distributing out wide. I suspect this team will play extremely loose/expansive rugby. The thrashwank brigade will love it.

What happens when it pisses down in NZ or Ireland or some other place? We're farked.

See my suggestions above. Get them right and then worry about the rest.

 

[Lee Grant]

How about:

1. Precision at the set pieces
2. Speed to the breakdown
3. Muscle up at the breakdown
4. Ball in hand as much as possible
5. Support the ball carrier
6. Tackle anything that moves
7. Mongrel everywhere.

All assuming skills improve across the park.

These truths would serve any rugby team well, but often the difference between winning and losing a game comes from intangible matters.

Between 1998 and 2001 we had the wood on the All Blacks and beat them 7-2 in Bledisloes IIRR. We won the RWC in that period, but our players weren't that much better than the Blacks - not to the tune of 7-2. We smacked them in that period because we won some tight games with persistence, patience and a belief in victory that players from both sides knew the Wallabies had.

Some players are born with these bloody-minded attributes that give more value to his team than the marginally superior skills and athletic abilites of another player in the same position - and when you have a lot of them in your team it is a powerful force.

All very well - but how can you teach this? You can't really, but you can nurture the seeds of these attributes which all players have to some extent. Deans, aided by by others, including the back office guys, created a culture of empowerment to the Crusaders players that brought these intangible qualities forth in them, often to their own surprise.

He also tended to pick players who had these attributes to a high degree to start with, and marginalised those who did not.

When Deans has access to more players who are genuine Wallaby candidates I'm sure he will skew his selections according to the above credo. Such players may appear to be of the same standard as another, but Deans will be looking at them with different spectacles than we are. Right now he is forced to use what he has in front of him, but it is no wonder that he is in favour of Oz having a 5th Super team, to fish from a bigger pool.

But I digress.

As for more tangible items: balls among the pigs. They seem to be better at it than some of the backs - not only in the S14 in the case of the Tahs, but on the EOYT also. Let's not be fooled: the Oz backs did not excel against France and Italy on tour.

But there is a new paradigm that a lot of people haven't discussed. IIRR the FK sanctions will not apply to the winter tests but the IRB sanctions will. These are the requirements that referees observe the laws that require players to stay on their feet or not to otherwise kill the ball, including on attack.

You only have to compare the Heineken Cup semi finals with the 1st S14 semi yesterday to realise that the protocols have had a significant effect. European teams are more scared of losing the ball after contact around the ruck than S14 teams are, and it's not just because they have a full penalty for infractions.

Hence they kick the ball sooner instead of trusting their forwards to take the pill up cleanly time after time. Many in the north blamed the 22 ELV for this, but later consenus had it that it was because of the IRB protocols.

Hence I don't think that ball in hand by the forwards will be a tactic that will be used a lot -and especially if a northern referee has the whistle.


PS: there is one other attribute that teams should have which is part intangible and part not.

Before the players run out Deans should give the instruction: "With or without the ball, and in all the contests, never hestitate to apply pressure."

 

[Biffo]

I agree with all of that. There seem to be a few of us less than happy with the Wallaby (and most Oz S14 teams) backlines for the last 5-6 years.

On "mongrelism" (the pc is "commitment"), Aussie Robbie's selections seem to indicate he places a lot of store in it. I was very interested in his comments just a week ago that he was thrilled with the "hard-nosed" play of the Tahs and Brumbies towards the end of S14.

 

[Gagger]

More importantly, an area that I reckon we can also make our own is ball in hand amongst the pigs.

I concur. That seems to be their strategy - ball runners in the tight 5, a tag team of opensides in the loose forwards to secure ruck ball, and a 2nd 5/8th distributing out wide. I suspect this team will play extremely loose/expansive rugby. The thrashwank brigade will love it.

That's not the "pigs ball in hand" I was on about when I mentioned the Tahs rolling maul and 'running in traffic'

I'm not talking about finding Sharpe and props seagulling on the wings, I'm talking about pick 'n go's, impromptu mauls, and that sort of pop ball interplay that I believe the French (historical masters at it) call 'the tortoise shell', which if done right is close to unstoppable and will suck up 10 guys to defend against it.

Very different to 'spinning it wide' with forwards. In fact, the opposite.

 

[Langthorne]

More importantly, an area that I reckon we can also make our own is ball in hand amongst the pigs.

I concur. That seems to be their strategy - ball runners in the tight 5, a tag team of opensides in the loose forwards to secure ruck ball, and a 2nd 5/8th distributing out wide. I suspect this team will play extremely loose/expansive rugby. The thrashwank brigade will love it.

That's not the "pigs ball in hand" I was on about when I mentioned the Tahs rolling maul and 'running in traffic'

I'm not talking about finding Sharpe and props seagulling on the wings, I'm talking about pick 'n go's, impromptu mauls, and that sort of pop ball interplay that I believe the French (historical masters at it) call 'the tortoise shell', which if done right is close to unstoppable and will suck up 10 guys to defend against it.

Very different to 'spinning it wide' with forwards. In fact, the opposite.

That is the forwards ball in hand I want to see too - running in close to draw the defence inwards.

 

[Gagger]

Getting out of the weeds a bit, what's the overall brand of rugby do you guys think we should play?

As stated above, I don't think the Deans saders counterattack breakout strategy suits our players and our abilities. Against the AB's, you're also taking on the best in the business at it.

Set piece and quick go forward ball is more our style I believe.