Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

And, if Japan are forced to choose between mutually exclusive options, what happens to Australia if they choose to go with NZ?

Then they go with NZ....while it is desirable for Japan to join our competition it is not dependant on them joining it. Also would japan really want to join NZ and get flogged every week or be in a competition with more uncertainty of outcome. Plus we do have the upper hand here as Japan already part of oz conference.

 

[zer0]

Then they go with NZ..while it is desirable for Japan to join our competition it is not dependant on them joining it.

Isn't it? If I have things right, then, without them you'd largely be relying on a wealthy benefactor. Outside of huge, prestigious leagues in large countries -- like the EPL and NFL -- I'd imagine that's not a very stable long-term strategy. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that point has been alluded to on this thread by Australian posters.

On the rugby playing side of things, isolationism may guarantee Australian wins but will tank the Wallabies.

Also would japan really want to join NZ and get flogged every week or be in a competition with more uncertainty of outcome.

Well, if there's one culture who could endure it, it's the Japanese. The Sunwolves crowds have been excellent even in some of the matches they've been easily outclassed (the number of which seems to be decreasing). But, more seriously, there's nothing to say that loans and the like couldn't be put in place for any theoretical non-Super Rugby competition.

Plus we do have the upper hand here as Japan already part of oz conference.

Do you? I'd argue that they're only there because NZ can field a full conference worth of competitive sides by itself. Outside of that, the NZRU played a big role in securing the Sunwolves spot (IIRC), shielded them from the cut and were the ones who originally brought big tests to Japan (vs Australia, 2009; vs Japan, 2013; others forthcoming, I believe). I dare say they have plenty of goodwill with the JRFU. Plus they have the All Blacks brand.

 

[joeyjohnz]

Outside of that, the NZRU played a big role in securing the Sunwolves spot (IIRC), shielded them from the cut and were the ones who originally brought big tests to Japan (vs Australia, 2009; vs Japan, 2013; others forthcoming, I believe). I dare say they have plenty of goodwill with the JRFU. Plus they have the All Blacks brand.

I think you might be underestimating the amount of goodwill Australia has with JRFU

We voted for them to host the World Cup over the Kiwi's; something many in the NZRU administration haven't yet forgiven.

 

[dru]

I think Dru like many - have underestimated how much fan appeal (read broadcast dollars - fans coming to matches) a professional Fiji side would offer.

No I don't think I mis-read the fan appeal. I do think others mis-read their commercial ability. never-the-less, if they are commercially sound, excellent they would be most welcome. But this also implies we need not skew the funding table. They can have exactly the same proportion as any other team in the comp.

Dont forget, that while not on the crazy scale of Super, travel costs to Fiji are higher. This is a cost born by the whole comp. So they would definitely want to be able to demonstrate an increase in broadcast $.

All that said, pull out of Super, stand aside of the Kiwis. For now. This is the key message. Good to see it gaining support.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Isn't it? If I have things right, then, without them you'd largely be relying on a wealthy benefactor. Outside of huge, prestigious leagues in large countries -- like the EPL and NFL -- I'd imagine that's not a very stable long-term strategy. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that point has been alluded to on this thread by Australian posters.



On the rugby playing side of things, isolationism may guarantee Australian wins but will tank the Wallabies.







Well, if there's one culture who could endure it, it's the Japanese. The Sunwolves crowds have been excellent even in some of the matches they've been easily outclassed (the number of which seems to be decreasing). But, more seriously, there's nothing to say that loans and the like couldn't be put in place for any theoretical non-Super Rugby competition.







Do you? I'd argue that they're only there because NZ can field a full conference worth of competitive sides by itself. Outside of that, the NZRU played a big role in securing the Sunwolves spot (IIRC), shielded them from the cut and were the ones who originally brought big tests to Japan (vs Australia, 2009; vs Japan, 2013; others forthcoming, I believe). I dare say they have plenty of goodwill with the JRFU. Plus they have the All Blacks brand.

I personally doubt Japan would want to remain in a NZ conference (and get flogged every week - as you really think that will keep their fan support) vs a Twiggy billionaire funded Oz competition with focus on equalisation of talent / teams.

I really don't believe Japan would choose to stay with NZ - particularly if Twiggy's indo pacific aspirations with a new oz based conference came to fruition with sides like HK also included etc.

Nope NZ can have its own little professional league - maybe with the Saffa's and Argies. Happy with that and we just play NZ in champions league.

 

[Braveheart81]

a Twiggy billionaire funded Oz competition with focus on equalisation of talent / teams.

This to me seems to be the massive unknown currently. How exactly is their proposed to be an equalisation of talent. If the other eventual teams don't have as deep pockets as Twiggy, how are they going to compete. At least half of the likely sides involved will need to import 100% of their players which means paying over the odds.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

No I don't think I mis-read the fan appeal. I do think others mis-read their commercial ability. never-the-less, if they are commercially sound, excellent they would be most welcome. But this also implies we need not skew the funding table. They can have exactly the same proportion as any other team in the comp.



Dont forget, that while not on the crazy scale of Super, travel costs to Fiji are higher. This is a cost born by the whole comp. So they would definitely want to be able to demonstrate an increase in broadcast $.



All that said, pull out of Super, stand aside of the Kiwis. For now. This is the key message. Good to see it gaining support.

Nope I still believe a good commercial model for Fiji could happen as yes I truly believe a professional Fiji side could be as good as best NZ super rugby talent and awesome to watch...ok maybe not overnight but definitely within a few years....yes they might have to play some 'home' games in say Sydney and Brisbane......(where they would get imo some of the best gate receipts) but I feel they could make it with a bit of early help (WR (World Rugby) funding like currently have with the Drua in NRC).

And Twiggy's team have the entrepreneurial and commercial nous to make it happen.

 

[zer0]

I personally doubt Japan would want to remain in a NZ conference (and get flogged every week - as you really think that will keep their fan support) vs a Twiggy billionaire funded Oz competition with focus on equalisation of talent / teams.

Fair enough. As it is, I personally don't really think there'll be a Aus/NZ split. I was just curious.

 

[joeyjohnz]

No I don't think I mis-read the fan appeal. I do think others mis-read their commercial ability. never-the-less, if they are commercially sound, excellent they would be most welcome. But this also implies we need not skew the funding table. They can have exactly the same proportion as any other team in the comp.

Dont forget, that while not on the crazy scale of Super, travel costs to Fiji are higher. This is a cost born by the whole comp. So they would definitely want to be able to demonstrate an increase in broadcast $.

All that said, pull out of Super, stand aside of the Kiwis. For now. This is the key message. Good to see it gaining support.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that return flights to Fiji are the same as a return flight to Dunedin. Once you take into account the disparity in accomodation costs, Fiji is a cheaper option than playing the Highlanders, or anywhere in NZ for that matter.

I don't think anyone here is proposing we skew the funding table to benefit PI nation's but nevertheless, but I'm glad we touched on travel costs. This why I keep referencing WR (World Rugby) and their funding of the Drua in the NRC. Currently, all travel costs of the Fijians & those teams playing in Fiji are covered by WR (World Rugby). They don't, and won't cost the ARU a cent.

It's not a leap of faith to assume this will continue and be emulated for Samoa & Tonga.

No I don't think I mis-read the fan appeal. I do think others mis-read their commercial ability. never-the-less, if they are commercially sound, excellent they would be most welcome.

Unfortunately Dru, if we're only taking teams that are commercially sound, no Australian team plays except the Wallabies & the Western Force.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Firstly, I'd like to point out that return flights to Fiji are the same as a return flight to Dunedin. Once you take into account the disparity in accomodation costs, Fiji is a cheaper option than playing the Highlanders, or anywhere in NZ for that matter.

I don't think anyone here is proposing we skew the funding table to benefit PI nation's but nevertheless, but I'm glad we touched on travel costs. This why I keep referencing WR (World Rugby) and their funding of the Drua in the NRC. Currently, all travel costs of the Fijians & those teams playing in Fiji are covered by WR (World Rugby). They don't, and won't cost the ARU a cent.

It's not a leap of faith to assume this will continue and be emulated for Samoa & Tonga.


Unfortunately Dru, if we're only taking teams that are commercially sound, no Australian team plays except the Wallabies & the Western Force.

WR (World Rugby) and the SRU are not friends at present. A lot of that has to do with the conduct of the SRU in regards to grants provided not going where they are supposed to. So, WR (World Rugby) funding a Samoan team without change in the SRU which considering their PM is also the Head of the Union is unlikely. Tonga suffers from facilities issues that would need to be addressed first but are probably more likely if at all.

 

[dru]

Unfortunately Dru, if we're only taking teams that are commercially sound, no Australian team plays except the Wallabies & the Western Force.

In Super yes. The reason we need out.

 

[joeyjohnz]

In Super yes. The reason we need out.

And my point is that if we do get out; who do we play?

WR (World Rugby) and the SRU are not friends at present. A lot of that has to do with the conduct of the SRU in regards to grants provided not going where they are supposed to. So, WR (World Rugby) funding a Samoan team without change in the SRU which considering their PM is also the Head of the Union is unlikely. Tonga suffers from facilities issues that would need to be addressed first but are probably more likely if at all.

Sad to hear. Although I maintain hope that because the head of Samoan Rugby is an elected official; self preservation will win out. It sure won't look good for Samoa to have Twiggy & World Rugby to say "yeah we tried to fund a professional team, but corruption. See your friendly PM for details".

Even then; Twiggy's WSR relies on Samoa's involvement. I won't be surprised if he owns and runs that team himself if that's what's required for WR (World Rugby) funding to get them standing on two feet.

 

[James Pettifer]

And my point is that if we do get out; who do we play?

I know it is radical but perhaps we do what pretty much every other competition in the world does and have it as a national competition.

The Pro 14 is the only other competition that I know of that has more than 2 countries. And in most cases, where there are 2 countries, one of them has 1 or 2 teams in someone else’s competition. The NHL being the only other one I can think with 2 countries with many teams from both.

 

[dru]

And my point is that if we do get out; who do we play?

I had thought this well covered. It is time for a domestic comp with a full national footprint.

 

[hoggy]

I had thought this well covered. It is time for a domestic comp with a full national footprint.

It amazes me how unless a team is 10,000 KLM's away it is somehow not looked upon as a possible opponent. Why is a domestic league which is used in 99% of the worlds successful sporting competitions never considered the preferred option with Rugby here.

 

[KOB1987]

It amazes me how unless a team is 10,000 KLM's away it is somehow not looked upon as a possible opponent. Why is a domestic league which is used in 99% of the worlds successful sporting competitions never considered the preferred option with Rugby here.

It’s not the opponent that’s the issue, it’s because we have to compete with the NRL and AFL and because of that we’d not be able to generate enough broadcast revenue to pay the players enough to stop them going to those 99% of the worlds successful sporting competitions. Not while it’s being established anyway, longer term we can conquer that as long as the product is better than the other domestic alternatives, but we need someone with big enough balls and the bank balance the get it going. Introducing twiggy Forrest..

 

[Joe King]

Building a strong national domestic comp followed by a shorter champions league is what the ARU/RA should have been aiming for from the very beginning of professional rugby.

 

[dru]

It’s not the opponent that’s the issue, it’s because we have to compete with the NRL and AFL and because of that we’d not be able to generate enough broadcast revenue to pay the players enough to stop them going to those 99% of the worlds successful sporting competitions. Not while it’s being established anyway, longer term we can conquer that as long as the product is better than the other domestic alternatives, but we need someone with big enough balls and the bank balance the get it going. Introducing twiggy Forrest..

The answer to domestic comps is a domestic comp. We don't need to be a dominant player, though it's a good aspiration. We just need to cut a few percentage points out of the domestic broadcast pie.

And yes, you'd be bereft of IQ to move forward without positive discussions with the Twigg.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

The answer to domestic comps is a domestic comp. We don't need to be a dominant player, though it's a good aspiration. We just need to cut a few percentage points out of the domestic broadcast pie.



And yes, you'd be bereft of IQ to move forward without positive discussions with the Twigg.

Lets get a reality check the only way RA could consider a (largely) domestic professional competition is with Twiggy as RA would not have the financial resources to even contemplate taking on the risks and costs of starting up a professional domestic competition. That is clearly the financial reality.

I would hence be extending that olive branch to Twiggy and indeed getting that red carpet out RA....

Really hard to say what things will look like post 2020 at this point despite what fans like us are demanding / saying. As will RA listen??? and does the RA board have the vision to execute as with recent board appointments it does not give much hope for visionary fresh thinking.....mine and many others is somehow a way is found for RA and Twiggy's team to work in partnership together.....as you can see with Twiggy's team and WSR and product delivered so far their willingness to embrace a more fan based entertainment experience to create a more appealing new product which is encouraging then the old stale Super Rugby product offered for many years which has led to dwindling fan base

 

[dru]

Lets get a reality check the only way RA could consider a (largely) domestic professional competition is with Twiggy as RA would not have the financial resources to even contemplate taking on the risks and costs of starting up a professional domestic competition. That is clearly the financial reality.

I would hence be extending that olive branch to Twiggy and indeed getting that red carpet out RA..

Really hard to say what things will look like post 2020 at this point despite what fans like us are demanding / saying. As will RA listen??? and does the RA board have the vision to execute as with recent board appointments it does not give much hope for visionary fresh thinking...mine and many others is somehow a way is found for RA and Twiggy's team to work in partnership together...as you can see with Twiggy's team and WSR and product delivered so far their willingness to embrace a more fan based entertainment experience to create a more appealing new product which is encouraging then the old stale Super Rugby product offered for many years which has led to dwindling fan base

RN you speak to me like I am anti Twigg. Fuck me, I started the "where to Twigg" thread. I haven't been a Reds member for years, but here in 2018 I am a paid up Force member. AS a died in the wool Qld-er who lives in Sydney with no chance of getting to a game in Perth. But I'm happy to put my money into something that I think deserves support. I believe in supporting guys who are doing good things (and don't believe in supporting groups who are NOT doing good things).

I am however yet to see how Twigg fits into a changing pro rugby landscape in Aus. I get his desire to create a 'real" international comp for the Force. I don't yet get how this may lead the charge post Super. Where we desperately need a domestic comp. Twiggy so far offers a international comp with much of the same limitations as Super. But with commercial support. Major difference. Sure.

But not necessarily what we need. We'll see. So far my money is with Twigg. But he is determinedly WA-centric. He is no doubt the saviour of WA rugby. It doesn't translate necessarily to the saviour of Aus rugby.