Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dan54]

I think the marquee concept (re: read think twiggyball) is sound as not all in. The fact NZ does not support would in my view show they are not who we should be relying on to develop something that would serve broader Oz and Asian growth plans. NZ to my mind is another England in that they will do fuck all to develop the world game and only look after their own interests.

I can understand your thoughts RN, but you mind telling me how any tier one country including Australia develop the world game? The reality is most countries have to look after their own first, or perhaps you would like to see the likes of say Izzy folau, and Pocock etc playing for Asian/American teams so that the game is developed in those countries? Genuine question , but is it just up to NZ to do it in SH?

 

[Quick Hands]

Honestly, our needs and wants have diverged so much in regards to anything below the Test match arena that we really should be looking at other options beyond Super Rugby at this point. .

I suspect that super rugby is basically unsalvageable for this reason alone, before we even address travel, games being played in the middle of the night, teams disappearing for 2 or 3 weeks at a time, lack of continuity of season and incomprehensible finals system.

I also suspect that SANZAAR and RA will battle on regardless.

Pressure and/or lack of interest from broadcasters will be what eventually puts it out of its misery, but we probably have one more broadcast deal left before the money really goes. As someone else pointed out a couple of pages back, attempts to reform the competition recently have come from intitiatives from the broadcasters rather than as a result of strategic thinking by SANZAAR. Waratahs and Reds now routinely drawing @ 10,000 (or less) to games which drew 30,000 not so long ago. The concept is unsustainable anywhere but NZ and as interest goes, so will the broadcast $$$.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I can understand your thoughts RN, but you mind telling me how any tier one country including Australia develop the world game? The reality is most countries have to look after their own first, or perhaps you would like to see the likes of say Izzy folau, and Pocock etc playing for Asian/American teams so that the game is developed in those countries? Genuine question , but is it just up to NZ to do it in SH?

Dan very valid point and I don’t want to infer that nz is the main problem, more my frustration that RA has failed to look after oz interests in being a very weak SANZAAR partner. This for me IS the main problem. The growth of Asia pacific zone is more mutually aligned to growth of oz rugby footprint as we don’t have the player depth or domestic fan support for a pure domestic competition but a Asia pacific competition can at least short term bridge those gaps and hopefully grow fan appeal.

 

[dru]

I can understand your thoughts RN, but you mind telling me how any tier one country including Australia develop the world game? The reality is most countries have to look after their own first, or perhaps you would like to see the likes of say Izzy folau, and Pocock etc playing for Asian/American teams so that the game is developed in those countries? Genuine question , but is it just up to NZ to do it in SH?

The issues with NZ, from an Aussie POV, are pretty black and white though the issues are not the narrative you portray.

RA has pretty much subsumed Australian interests to NZ led regional positioning. NZ fronts this as reciprocal as they fundamentally drive only NZ interest, or at least allow Australian matters to rest on a back burner. Is this inconsistent of NZ compared to any other national concern? No. But it IS the issue right here in our own backyard. Is RA responsible for this? Yes.

Which doesn’t help rugby here at all.

A trans Tasman comp could work even though naturally being dominated by the stronger partner. But it won’t be offered.

At some point survival prospects will be better for Australia by opting out. Some think this has already happened. About the best I can see from the alternate view is “not (quite) yet”.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Honestly, our needs and wants have diverged so much in regards to anything below the Test match arena that we really should be looking at other options beyond Super Rugby at this point. Pity we cannot seem to mend the fences with GRR and look to find a Infront like opportunity to help fund an attempt at creating the best league in the world.

my sentiments exactly wcr and if I could give you a zillion likes for that post I would

 

[Quick Hands]

The issues with NZ, from an Aussie POV, are pretty black and white though the issues are not the narrative you portray.

RA has pretty much subsumed Australian interests to NZ led regional positioning. NZ fronts this as reciprocal as they fundamentally drive only NZ interest, or at least allow Australian matters to rest on a back burner. Is this inconsistent of NZ compared to any other national concern? No. But it IS the issue right here in our own backyard. Is RA responsible for this? Yes.

Which doesn’t help rugby here at all.

A trans Tasman comp could work even though naturally being dominated by the stronger partner. But it won’t be offered.

At some point survival prospects will be better for Australia by opting out. Some think this has already happened. About the best I can see from the alternate view is “not (quite) yet”.

You've pretty much nailed it dru. I think that we can get an Asia/Pacific or at least a South Pacific professional league going.

Either the 5 Aussie super franchises (including obviously the Force) or the 8 NRC franchises or (which would essentially be the same with NSW and Qld split - I'm open to whatever combination works) plus the 3 Pacific Island nations (playing at least some of their home games out of Sydney and Brisbane). So to get an 8, 9 or 10 team professional league going doesn't require a huge imagination, just some strategic planning. I'm even open to a Tokyo team if the financials work as it's in our time zone. I don't think that the Japan option is critical to the concept though.

I think that we need the Pacific Island nations as much as they need us at the moment. Playing their home games in Sydney or Brisbane would give them good gates and being involved would give their players regular professional competition without having to go to Europe. For us, having three strong teams in the competition makes it better for our teams and gives more games (but not too many more). Enough games means that there would be a game in a TV suitable time zone every Friday and Saturday night and every Sunday afternoon.

For the game of rugby, it also lessens the appeal of league in the islands. The leaguies are smart enough to see the immense and under-utilised talent pool in the island and are making an effort to promote league there.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I agree LugiDazer super rugby is very hard for me to decipher and translate for the modern day sports fan.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Rumblings this week that SA Rugby are keen to add two more sides to the Pro 14 in the next round of expansion. Talk of the Pumas and Griquas according to those rumblings. Would be split into 4 pools with the Irish, Welsh and SA teams having their own pools and the Scots and Italian combined to form the fourth.

Issue is, in an article by Murray Kinsella it mentions Pro 14 are open to further SA expansion but aren't interested in either the Pumas or Griquas. They want two of the bigger SA franchises. Which is interesting as it's known that the Bulls, Stormers and Sharks have all expressed interest in making the shift in the recent past. Which could mean that we could end up with SA Rugby trying to thrust the Pumas and Griquas on Super Rugby. Not ideal at all.

 

[kiap]

Which could mean that we could end up with SA Rugby trying to thrust the Pumas and Griquas on Super Rugby. Not ideal at all.

Shark teams could just play in both. The CC players start getting paid pro and, bam, it's all done.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Shark teams could just play in both. The CC players start getting paid pro and, bam, it's all done.

The article mentions that the SA franchises want access to the Champions Cup and that the Pro 14 is only interested in SA franchises if they are offering their full strength squads including Springboks. I seriously doubt SA will be given the support needed to gain entry to one without providing the other.

 

[Rebels3]

I’m supportive of them moving north.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I’m supportive of them moving north.

I think if the Champions Cup was a realistic option we'd see them make the jump pretty damn quickly.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yep if SA were able to be eligible for Champions Cup out of Pro 14 they indeed would jettison Super Rugby very quickly.....

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yep if SA were able to be eligible for Champions Cup out of Pro 14 they indeed would jettison Super Rugby very quickly...

Which I kind of hope does happen as just one game outside our time zones in Argentina every year is better than three and even then that would still be at breakfast time on a Sunday which is much preferred to the middle of the damn night.

 

[Derpus]

Rumblings this week that SA Rugby are keen to add two more sides to the Pro 14 in the next round of expansion. Talk of the Pumas and Griquas according to those rumblings. Would be split into 4 pools with the Irish, Welsh and SA teams having their own pools and the Scots and Italian combined to form the fourth.

Issue is, in an article by Murray Kinsella it mentions Pro 14 are open to further SA expansion but aren't interested in either the Pumas or Griquas. They want two of the bigger SA franchises. Which is interesting as it's known that the Bulls, Stormers and Sharks have all expressed interest in making the shift in the recent past. Which could mean that we could end up with SA Rugby trying to thrust the Pumas and Griquas on Super Rugby. Not ideal at all.

It all makes sense until you look at the attendances of the two former SA Super Rugby sides playing in the Pro 14. Absolutely terrible.

Bulls might fair better, but it seems quite a gamble.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It all makes sense until you look at the attendances of the two former SA Super Rugby sides playing in the Pro 14. Absolutely terrible.

Bulls might fair better, but it seems quite a gamble.

Would be but I guess it's up to them to take that risk.

 

[Joe King]

Who's playing in Super Rugby doesn't even get a mention a long side all the other sports on the news anymore.

We would be set to lose a lot of revenue at first, which is the big deterrent to this proposal, but I can't see how rugby can gain any ground in Australia below test rugby, unless we set up our own comp that serves our own purposes. Something akin to our 4 Super Rugby teams, the Force, the PI teams based in Australia, and possibly a Japanese team or two.

Unless we drop back to 3 teams in Super Rugby, we're just not competitive enough to have a very exciting comp with the NZ teams.

Is it at all possible to set up our own comp in order to attract more interest within Australia below test level, and still raise enough revenue to have a competitive Wallabies team?

 

[Dan54]

Is it at all possible to set up our own comp in order to attract more interest within Australia below test level, and still raise enough revenue to have a competitive Wallabies team?

The quick answer to that is no!
It's all very nice to think that it could happen, but Aus rugby can't afford it, and would be completely either bankrupt, or running such a second string comp that the game would never recover. I know a lot talk about how successful soccer is with their second string comp, but their crowds at Suncorp make the Reds look huge! It is very hard to maintain an interest in sport if you give the people a comp without best players in it. League and AFL will always do reasonably well, because noone else really plays the game , so the best players in the world are in the local comp! Soccer gets good crowds at Internationals, because it when their best players are at home otherwise they all overseas playing, which is exactly what will happen to Aus rugby if you have a NRC standard comp as the top comp for Aus players.

 

[wamberal]

Some unpalatable truths there, Dan.

 

[kiap]

good crowds at Internationals, because it when their best players are at home otherwise they all overseas playing, which is exactly what will happen to Aus rugby

This will happen with soup, Dan. It's underway now.