Where to for Super Rugby?

[Dismal Pillock]

I cannot see one thing in there that could possibly upset anyone including working with Aus to get EOI from their existing Super clubs and other interested parties (see Force).

 

[dru]

Question: Does anyone think the NZRU entertained the possibility that they would have to put together an eight-team rugby competition with no Australian sides? Because if all five Australian teams hold firm, they are going to have to give up this plan.

NZR will find it difficult to substantially expand from a 5 team domestic comp without Australia. It is likely they are starting to understand this. The response seems equally obvious

1. Overegg the team reduction with the intention of forcing some level of Aus reduction.
2. Look for cracks by going direct to the franchises - this does not achieve what they wanted (condensing Aus talent) but does allow a victory on the numbers. I remain surprised that they have not proven successfull given RA historical competence. Dont forget though, what NZR actually want is for us to fund this comp as well as loose our best talent. So option 2 is somewhat problematic for them.

3. Test the water for alternates. It's not likely to get far, hence one poster's cynicism here speaking about teams from outer Mongolia.

4.a Return to RA with a full complement from Australia and a heavy warning on quality and expectation Aus teams to be spanked. This is a real possibility at this stage. And noone would doubt the expectation.
4.b On conclusion of the season return to step 1.

Note that nowhere in the above are any actions taken by NZR to proactively level the competition playing field. The scenario inevitably leads to dejavu.

RA are much better calling the bluff here and leaving NZ to their own. At some point, you would hope, that an understanding will eventuate that BOTH
i) Yes NZR are completely correct, a successful comp needs a (more or less) level playing field; AND
ii) Australia has requirements

But they are not ready for it yet. Certainly the fans are not, evidenced here by several Kiwi supporting posters.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

NZR will find it difficult to substantially expand from a 5 team domestic comp without Australia. It is likely they are starting to understand this. The response seems equally obvious

1. Overegg the team reduction with the intention of forcing some level of Aus reduction.
2. Look for cracks by going direct to the franchises - this does not achieve what they wanted (condensing Aus talent) but does allow a victory on the numbers. I remain surprised that they have not proven successfull given RA historical competence. Dont forget though, what NZR actually want is for us to fund this comp as well as loose our best talent. So option 2 is somewhat problematic for them.

3. Test the water for alternates. It's not likely to get far, hence one poster's cynicism here speaking about teams from outer Mongolia.

4.a Return to RA with a full complement from Australia and a heavy warning on quality and expectation Aus teams to be spanked. This is a real possibility at this stage. And noone would doubt the expectation.
4.b On conclusion of the season return to step 1.

Note that nowhere in the above are any actions taken by NZR to proactively level the competition playing field. The scenario inevitably leads to dejavu.

RA are much better calling the bluff here and leaving NZ to their own. At some point, you would hope, that an understanding will eventuate that BOTH
i) Yes NZR are completely correct, a successful comp needs a (more or less) level playing field; AND
ii) Australia has requirements

But they are not ready for it yet. Certainly the fans are not, evidenced here by several Kiwi supporting posters.

I am at this point so over the whole politics of rugby and the fact I have no doubt an open borders competition in the region that allows for more free flow of players would create a better regional footprint and product the fans would engage in but it won’t happen with NZRU pulling the strings.

Unless there is something like the above with also critical private equity investment I think we are better going it alone albeit accepting may well be semi pro model and where would probably need to allow players to be selected from overseas ie same Model as what South Africa does.

 

[Dan54]

I am at this point so over the whole politics of rugby and the fact I have no doubt an open borders competition in the region that allows for more free flow of players would create a better regional footprint and product the fans would engage in but it won’t happen with NZRU pulling the strings.

Unless there is something like the above with also critical private equity investment I think we are better going it alone albeit accepting may well be semi pro model and where would probably need to allow players to be selected from overseas ie same Model as what South Africa does.

I have no doubt without some private equity money I seriously doubt whether RA will be able to afford to run any comps, or was it all bullshit that they were almost bankrupt from trying to have 4 teams in super. You are probably right, you then stuck with a semi pro comp, and virtually no chance of being competitive in WCs etc. I wouldn't be guaranteeing Twiggy staying aorund in that kind of comp, either GRR or he will try and get a team in whatever comp NZ put together, he has made it clear he wants the Force to be a top team knocking over kiwi teams etc in the future, and it won't happen in a semi pro comp like NRC.

 

[Dan54]

Question: Does anyone think the NZRU entertained the possibility that they would have to put together an eight-team rugby competition with no Australian sides? Because if all five Australian teams hold firm, they are going to have to give up this plan.

Actually if you were as sad as me PitD and tried to watch as many podcasts etc about rugby, you would know there has been talk of extra teams for a NZ comp all year (in NZ) have heard them ask the CEO of Tasman how ready they are if one was based there. So they have certainly entertained the idea. I will add that was looked seriously because the thought of no trvel between countries for sport was (and is) a strong possibility over next year or so.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

NZR,NZR , NZR,NZ,NZR, several Kiwi supporting posters.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Actually if you were as sad as me PitD and tried to watch as many podcasts etc about rugby, you would know there has been talk of extra teams for a NZ comp all year (in NZ) have heard them ask the CEO of Tasman how ready they are if one was based there. So they have certainly entertained the idea. I will add that was looked seriously because the thought of no trvel between countries for sport was (and is) a strong possibility over next year or so.

I think at this rate Dan if we don’t announce a funded competition soon semi pro option will be only option available as more leading players depart for overseas. I don’t see option of 3 teams in NZRU dominated and designed trans Tasman as better long answer then national domestic semi pro competition with relaxation of Giteau law..better to short term go backwards and have decent footprint to build for long term.

 

[Dan54]

I think at this rate Dan if we don’t announce a funded competition soon semi pro option will be only option available as more leading players depart for overseas. I don’t see option of 3 teams in NZRU dominated and designed trans Tasman as better long answer then national domestic semi pro competition with relaxation of Giteau law..better to short term go backwards and have decent footprint to build for long term.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I not sure going semi pro is a short term fix, RA will then have virtually nothing to offer kids coming out of school, and the risk will be they will either go to league, or get hoovered up by NH clubs that works well for the PIs. Don't ever risk letting Rugby in Australia become like soccer, where the only point for a young fella is to be noticed by an overseas scout.

 

[dru]

OK. Sometimes persistence becomes funny. I'll pay that.

 

[Derpus]

RA are much better calling the bluff here and leaving NZ to their own. At some point, you would hope, that an understanding will eventuate that BOTH
i) Yes NZR are completely correct, a successful comp needs a (more or less) level playing field; AND
ii) Australia has requirements

But they are not ready for it yet. Certainly the fans are not, evidenced here by several Kiwi supporting posters.

Just isn't the case imo.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I not sure going semi pro is a short term fix, RA will then have virtually nothing to offer kids coming out of school, and the risk will be they will either go to league, or get hoovered up by NH clubs that works well for the PIs. Don't ever risk letting Rugby in Australia become like soccer, where the only point for a young fella is to be noticed by an overseas scout.

My point Dan options are slim - ideal is get nzru to agree trans tasman with us having 5 teams and significantly more open borders policy to create more franchise team model in each location able to attract players not limited to their own borders (and able to still be selected for national honours of their country of origin) that facilitates establishing decent footprint and that levelling the playing field, improves quality of product across the region for teams/ locations involved and grow fan interest and appeal. All of this of course is then predicated on private equity investment to fund which i reckon this franchise model would more appeal to.

To me the biggest constraint holding this back is NZRU lacking any ability to see this vision for a successful regional rugby product that is win win for all parties due to their myopic focus on a competition that serves nothing more then there interests in All Black Development League.

NZRU for all its noise has been really as much part of the wider key part of the problem why the Asian Pacific region has not fully leveraged the strength and growth of the world game.

 

[hoggy]

It is just sad that after 20 years, the damage that Super rugby has done to the code in this country when the only option that appears available now is some Semi-Pro, oranges at halftime domestic competition.

 

[zer0]

Lets say NZR is willing to completely open player movements, or at least from NZ to Aus. For those for who have player movement as an absolute requirement from an Australian POV, what are your thoughts on the likely requirements from an NZ POV:

• Abiding by the NZR conditioning requirements (i.e. mandated rests)
• Agreeing not to poach NZ players for test rugby

Admittedly the former is really only applicable to regular All Blacks, who may not actually be that high up the shopping list, but the latter would definitely be a concern NZR would need to see addressed.

EDIT: And what about revenue sharing/splitting? Will you be expecting Australia to get an even split despite likely (at least at first) providing a smaller percentage of the players? If it's weighted by player percentages -- something I think would be reasonable in such a setup -- what about the potential positive feedback loop it generates (NZR gets more money -> invests more money into player development -> more NZ players enter the league -> NZR gets more money)?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Lets say NZR is willing to completely open player movements, or at least from NZ to Aus. For those for who have player movement as an absolute requirement from an Australian POV, what are your thoughts on the likely requirements from an NZ POV:

• Abiding by the NZR conditioning requirements (i.e. mandated rests)
• Agreeing not to poach NZ players for test rugby

Admittedly the former is really only applicable to regular All Blacks, who may not actually be that high up the shopping list, but the latter would definitely be a concern NZR would need to see addressed.


EDIT: And what about revenue sharing/splitting? Will you be expecting Australia to get an even split despite likely (at least at first) providing a smaller percentage of the players? If it's weighted by player percentages -- something I think would be reasonable in such a setup -- what about the potential positive feedback loop it generates (NZR gets more money -> invests more money into player development -> more NZ players enter the league -> NZR gets more money)?

Other countries around the world deal with this issue of their national players playing for other competitions outside their boundaries, so I am personally not going to entertain commentary on this as reasons not to look beyond this as other countries show this is clearly a solvable issue if parties come to the table and should not be a deal breaker.

On revenue sharing again that is a negotiable point and you will see that Hamish has already suggested any private equity investment in such a competition that NZRU may be more entitled to greater revenue share. Again this is something that can be sorted out and negotiated and should not be a deal breaker.

 

[Rebels3]

Player percentage as an allocation of revenue lol now I have heard everything.

Africa is still waiting for several $100m a year in revenue from the English Prem League from their player representation in the competition

 

[kiap]

I wouldn't be guaranteeing Twiggy staying aorund in that kind of comp, either GRR or he will try and get a team in whatever comp NZ put together, he has made it clear he wants the Force to be a top team knocking over kiwi teams etc in the future

Nup. Without an RA-NZR deal it's not gonna happen.

Short of going the 'Wales option' by decoupling from the East Coast elites and affiliating directly with World Rugby, it's too difficult.

Having said that, a Westralia team could play Tests and make the RWC.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Nup. Without an RA-NZR deal it's not gonna happen.

Short of going the 'Wales option' by decoupling from the East Coast elites and affiliating directly with World Rugby, it's too difficult.

Having said that, a Westralia team could play Tests and make the RWC.

With more imports than the Japanese.

 

[dru]

from an Australian POV, what are your thoughts on the likely requirements from an NZ POV:

• Abiding by the NZR conditioning requirements (i.e. mandated rests)
• Agreeing not to poach NZ players for test rugby

It isnt exactly about making NZ players available to Australia - though that is certainly the impact under current scenarios. What you want is a cohesive competition that is somehow intended to level available talent.

To set that out you would need to agree rules around it. If your above is part of the rules then I'd expect the comp to come down hard on any breaches. No problem.

Also note, that as many have noted, you are not going to see ABs jumping quickly to Australia. What you would hope is that talent missing first 15 opportunities in NZ, would not be put off considering Australian teams due to the AB door closing. Over time though, you would expect the occassional AB to be Australian based. Not going to happen quickly.

Wrt your second item, it depends on how they have been signed up. There are ex-pat NewZealand bred players who have ended up playing for Australia. But you would imagine that a player being held back from joining an Aus comp would be happy to commit up front to being NZ available.

 

[kiap]

With more imports than the Japanese.

Or Scotland, et al ...

But fewer than Hong Kong.

Would be interesting.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

It isnt exactly about making NZ players available to Australia - though that is certainly the impact under current scenarios. What you want is a cohesive competition that is somehow intended to level available talent.

To set that out you would need to agree rules around it. If your above is part of the rules then I'd expect the comp to come down hard on any breaches. No problem.

Also note, that as many have noted, you are not going to see ABs jumping quickly to Australia. What you would hope is that talent missing first 15 opportunities in NZ, would not be put off considering Australian teams due to the AB door closing. Over time though, you would expect the occassional AB to be Australian based. Not going to happen quickly.

Wrt your second item, it depends on how they have been signed up. There are ex-pat NewZealand bred players who have ended up playing for Australia. But you would imagine that a player being held back from joining an Aus comp would be happy to commit up front to being NZ available.

I don't want NZ talent coming over to be completely honest. Unless they are a current AB. I'd prefer we look at other nations. Get the ARF on board to help get some of this guys on board if needed.