Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rugbynutter39]

We need a couple more years at least of a Super Rugby AU before we go TT. My fear is a TT will only be an initial hit before it has the same deflating effect as old Super Rugby. We need more Aussie wins every week and another all-Aussie final. Super Rugby AU has been the best season of Super Rugby for years! And SRAo was great to watch on it's own as well. Lets not blow it away too quickly. It's breathing new life into rugby here. Already, it has turned existing fans from negative to positive. Next year it will begin to attract new fans. It is just starting to gain momentum. The international component should only come at the end.

I feel the only way a TT competition could really be successful is with more open borders policy, private equity investment and allowing of marquee player quota's. And having all 3. As need PE investment to give a better base to compete against NRL and AFL to really set up the competition to attract best talent but also have much needed money to spend on , grass roots investment etc. We need open borders policy to allow for more free flow of players and even up talent across teams as NZ has best rugby players, teams so if going to have other Asia Pacific teams in there to grow the fan and commercial footprint we need to allow for franchises to be less restricted by only players available in their home market (especially in early years to grow fan appeal and success which are not mutually exclusive). For early years, new teams and less strong oz teams who need breathing space to reap rewards of grass roots investment etc need to be given more room to recruit marquee players but again to do that would likely require private equity investment to attract right players.

Personally though I think NZRU lack any commercial nous or vision on what a really great TT product could look like to grow a strong regional rugby footprint across the Asia Pacific so hence because of that we may still be forced to look at developing our own competition.

 

[hoggy]

In defense of NZRU, they would hardly be looking at the RA as having the nous or vision to grow a TT competition either, ultimately only PE could do that, both NZRU and RA simply have to many vested interests for it to have a chance to grow beyond just another Super rugby lite.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

In defense of NZRU, they would hardly be looking at the RA as having the nous or vision to grow a TT competition either, ultimately only PE could do that, both NZRU and RA simply have to many vested interests for it to have a chance to grow beyond just another Super rugby lite.

Don’t disagree with this - I think we need the right private equity investor on board to drive parties to a successful trans Tasman product that engages fans and grows the footprint as we either grow and become more relevant or let others like afl and nrl continue to make inroads across the region. I think RA more open to innovative changes then NzRU at this point but agree with your point probably need private equity investment to drive a better commercially viable and successful competition

 

[Joe King]

I feel the only way a TT competition could really be successful is with more open borders policy, private equity investment and allowing of marquee player quota's. And having all 3. As need PE investment to give a better base to compete against NRL and AFL to really set up the competition to attract best talent but also have much needed money to spend on , grass roots investment etc. We need open borders policy to allow for more free flow of players and even up talent across teams as NZ has best rugby players, teams so if going to have other Asia Pacific teams in there to grow the fan and commercial footprint we need to allow for franchises to be less restricted by only players available in their home market (especially in early years to grow fan appeal and success which are not mutually exclusive). For early years, new teams and less strong oz teams who need breathing space to reap rewards of grass roots investment etc need to be given more room to recruit marquee players but again to do that would likely require private equity investment to attract right players.

Personally though I think NZRU lack any commercial nous or vision on what a really great TT product could look like to grow a strong regional rugby footprint across the Asia Pacific so hence because of that we may still be forced to look at developing our own competition.

That would be a much better TT. NZ has the players and Australia has the potential market.

The most important thing for NZ is the AB's being as good as they can be. ATM, their Super Rugby teams play an important part in achieving that. For this kind of TT to work, they would need to be absolutely convinced that any new structure would benefit the AB's, or at least not jeopardise their winning formula.

Would an added 3 game Nth v Sth series after the TT, which also acted as an AB trial, be enough to compensate for the change?

 

[qwerty51]

We need a couple more years at least of a Super Rugby AU before we go TT. My fear is a TT will only be an initial hit before it has the same deflating effect as old Super Rugby. .

Want to expand on this because I don't see any of the reasons why Super Rugby declined being relevant to a TT.

 

[hifflepiff]

We need a couple more years at least of a Super Rugby AU before we go TT. My fear is a TT will only be an initial hit before it has the same deflating effect as old Super Rugby. We need more Aussie wins every week and another all-Aussie final. Super Rugby AU has been the best season of Super Rugby for years! And SRAo was great to watch on it's own as well. Lets not blow it away too quickly. It's breathing new life into rugby here. Already, it has turned existing fans from negative to positive. Next year it will begin to attract new fans. It is just starting to gain momentum. The international component should only come at the end.

I maintain that TT should only come after AU and NZ domestic seasons as a Champions Cup style format. This season has been great and every week there's a headline with an Aussie team winning, which can only be good for Rugby's popularity. I've never seen people, both Rugby fans and casuals, more positive about Super Rugby.

After we've crowned our respective champions, have the best of the best battle it out for Trans-Tasman glory.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Want to expand on this because I don't see any of the reasons why Super Rugby declined being relevant to a TT.

Not particularly relevant to rusted on fans, but a good proportion of the games being against "foreigners " won't help to win over new fans. And as a couple of NZ posters assure us, fans in NZ are in bed when the Aussie games begin at 9.30 their time.

 

[Up the Guts]

One thing I’ve found watching the finals as a neutral is that when someone has a quiet or off night you’re not writing off Australian Rugby completely because usually his opposite, also available for Wallaby selection, will have stepped up. You also start accepting that players won’t perform at their best week in week out. This is opposed to watching a player play well in some local derbies and against some SA teams and then having a harder time against the Crusaders in Christchurch and thinking “well we won’t win a Bledislode with him in the side.”

 

[qwerty51]

Not particularly relevant to rusted on fans, but a good proportion of the games being against "foreigners " won't help to win over new fans. And as a couple of NZ posters assure us, fans in NZ are in bed when the Aussie games begin at 9.30 their time.

The second part isn’t relevant because it has nothing to do with us and would be the same for an Aus only comp.

As for the first I really doubt NZ teams are seen as foreign teams. Everyone knows who the Chiefs, Crusaders, Blues etc are. It’s not the Jaguares or Sunwolves. Even non rugby fans could name them all I bet. They’ve been around for 25 years.

 

[hifflepiff]

The second part isn’t relevant because it has nothing to do with us and would be the same for an Aus only comp.

As for the first I really doubt NZ teams are seen as foreign teams. Everyone knows who the Chiefs, Crusaders, Blues etc are. It’s not the Jaguares or Sunwolves. Even non rugby fans could name them all I bet. They’ve been around for 25 years.

I think you'd be surprised, most of my mates (mid 20's) can barely name all the Australian teams. If you ask them who the Blues are they're gonna think State of Origin. The average Australian sports fan couldn't put Christchurch on a map.

 

[qwerty51]

So that fan isn't watching rugby anyway no matter what the format is?

 

[Joe King]

Want to expand on this because I don't see any of the reasons why Super Rugby declined being relevant to a TT.

I just think the reason for Super Rugby's decline was more than playing in bad timezones. I think it included the build up of negative, bad news week after week because Australian teams were losing too often to o/s teams. This has a demoralising effect after a while and makes it hard to be excited about rugby in Australia. When an Australian team loses to another Australian team, the news outlets still have a good news story to tell, and all Australian rugby fans can at least be happy that it's good for the Wallabies. That's why Super Rugby AU has been such a breath of fresh air. I think a TT with 5 Oz teams would create the same issue.

But I think it's even more than that. I think the international component only really works well for Australian fans as a novelty. That's why I think Super Rugby was so popular in the beginning, and still would be good if it was kept to a minimum with just the best v the best at the end of a season. It's like test rugby in that way. It's great in smaller doses. Too much, and it no longer satisfies. The novelty wears off, as I think it did with Super Rugby. And if we had a TT, I don't think it would be too long before the novelty wore off that as well.

While this doesn't apply to all rugby fans in Australia, I think part of the dissatisfaction with Super Rugby was also caused by wanting to have what the NRL and AFL have in terms of their domestic presence. We welcomed the start of the conference system with more local derbies, but it just couldn't create the domestic feel that I think many Australian fans wanted.

Don't get me wrong, a TT would be way better than old Super Rugby, but I just think it wouldn't be long before Australian fans started wishing that we'd kept going with Super Rugby AU.

Just my opinion. Feel free to counter. None of these issues apply to you obviously.

 

[sendit]

But I think it's even more than that. I think the international component only really works well for Australian fans as a novelty. That's why I think Super Rugby was so popular in the beginning, and still would be good if it was kept to a minimum with just the best v the best at the end of a season. It's like test rugby in that way. It's great in smaller doses. Too much, and it no longer satisfies. The novelty wears off, as I think it did with Super Rugby. And if we had a TT, I don't think it would be too long before the novelty wore off that as well.

I actually think superAU is the novelty, its a nice little change but another 2-3 years of the same and god damn im gonna get bored, there's too few teams and we cant expand without declining quality which is going to hurt the overall product. Look at the NRL, the talent difference between the top and bottom teams is actually laughable. TT with open borders is the way to go, mixing players from both countries will see fan investment in games and teams from both sides of the ditch

As an aside im atually surprised by the amount of rugby fans here that don't enjoy a game of footy that doesnt feature their team or countrymen. I love watching a good kiwi derby or the mitre 10 cup, very enjoyable

 

[hifflepiff]

So that fan isn't watching rugby anyway no matter what the format is?

They do watch rugby that's the thing (albeit very casually i.e Wallabies and the occasional Super Rugby match) and they enjoy the game, NZ teams just don't register for most people outside of those that follow Union closely. If Rugby wants to be a viable product, the average Australian sports fan are the ones we need to be grabbing.

 

[qwerty51]

They watch rugby but can't name the 5 Australian teams? Ok.

 

[sendit]

They do watch rugby that's the thing (albeit very casually) and they enjoy the game, NZ teams just don't register for most people outside of those that follow Union closely. If Rugby wants to be a viable product, the average Australian sports fan are the ones we need to be grabbing.

Why though? If what your saying is correct its a pretty unusual behaviour. Is it some sort of warped nationalist pride that theyre ok watching two teams from out of state but draw the line with a team thats a few thousand kms across the ocean

 

[hifflepiff]

They watch rugby but can't name the 5 Australian teams? Ok.

A lot of people watch the Wallabies but not much else, it's not that unusual.

 

[qwerty51]

You talk about novelty wearing off, you know what will wear off even quicker? Playing the same teams every week. The same fucking 4. 3 times? 4 times?

Your comment about the constant losing being harmful is totally accurate, which is why I've said the comp needs to be free movement to create equality in the teams.

 

[hifflepiff]

Why though? If what your saying is correct its a pretty unusual behaviour. Is it some sort of warped nationalist pride that theyre ok watching two teams from out of state but draw the line with a team thats a few thousand kms across the ocean

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy playing NZ teams but I do feel like it's more enjoyable if we played them less often, it would keep its novelty.

At the end of the day I want Australian rugby to do well and enjoy following Australian players and teams. I can appreciate the skill level of NZ games but don't have much interest in whether their teams do well or poorly, which makes their games less interesting to watch.

Again this is just my personal feelings and and I don't mean to pass off my observations as being statistically relevant . For lack of hard data I can really only speak from my personal experience, but outside of hardcore rugby fans and Kiwi's I really don't see that much interest in non-Australian teams.

 

[hifflepiff]

You talk about novelty wearing off, you know what will wear off even quicker? Playing the same teams every week. The same fucking 4. 3 times? 4 times?

Your comment about the constant losing being harmful is totally accurate, which is why I've said the comp needs to be free movement to create equality in the teams.

Keeping things as they are would definitely get boring eventually, which is why long term we'd have to look at adding more teams (maybe via private investment).

I don't really know if free movement would help that much. Can Australian teams offer that much more than NZ teams for top players? Keeping in mind we'd probably have to offer a fair bit more as we'd be asking them to move away from home to a team that's likely to be worse than the one they're currently playing at. If we can get these players I could definitely see the benefit in such a system.

And if we can't get the best NZ players then we'd just be asking for the players NZ teams don't want, which as we've seen in the past is unlikely to improve Australian teams and much more likely to just end up with Kiwi journeymen take up space on a teams roster (in the process keeping out young Australian players).