Where's the boycotts of Saudi Arabia?

[TahDan]

Garry Linnell has a pretty good piece today regarding the Wanderers playing a Saudi team in the ACL Final this week, rightly asking where our collective moral outrage has gone since the 1970s.

These two quotes sum up the argument well:

Imagine a nation that treats a huge section of its population as little more than slaves. A nation where many are not allowed access to a full education or a professional career. Picture a place where some citizens can count themselves lucky if they are allowed to show their faces in public, let alone attend a sporting event.

Now imagine this: a football stadium in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, this Sunday. A sweltering cauldron of sound. The Western Sydney Wanderers run on to the pitch to play the second leg of the final of the Asian Champions League against Al-Hilal.


When the Springboks arrived in 1971 for a series of Tests, more than 700 Australians were arrested for disrupting the tour.

Such was the public outcry that games were played behind barbed wire. Unions banded together, forcing the tourists to travel around the country on air force planes.
These strident public protests eventually led to a stiffening in the resolve of politicians.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/wheres-the-outrage-over-saudi-treatment-of-women-20141029-11dijm.html#ixzz3HVKb9e64

Surely he's right here - in what way is it morally consistent for us as a country to have refused to participate in sporting events with South Africa over apartheid, yet turn a blind eye to the intensely and violently misogynistic and homophobic Saudia Arabia?

 

[fatprop]

Can we add the USA to the list for their exploitation of prison labor and illegal immigrants?

 

[TahDan]

Can we add the USA to the list for their exploitation of prison labor and illegal immigrants?

So you basically don't consider this a serious question. Why, just out of curiosity? In what way is it right for us to boycott South Africa and not Saudi Arabia? Also, if you're worried about mistreatment of illegal immigrants, I'd start with Qatar...

 

[fatprop]

So you basically don't consider this a serious question. Why, just out of curiosity? In what way is it right for us to boycott South Africa and not Saudi Arabia? Also, if you're worried about mistreatment of illegal immigrants, I'd start with Qatar.

Why not Australia's treatment of refugees or aborigines?

I am just bored with faux outrage, especially the male "feminist" vs muslims stuff

 

[TahDan]

Why not Australia's treatment of refugees or aborigines?

I am just bored with faux outrage

Then why did you comment? Just to let me know you think Linnell isn't 'sincere', or because you just wanted to shoe what level your superciliousness has reached?

 

[fatprop]

Mate, he is a 2UE radio jock, that is one tiny level above Alan Jones, I am basically highly dubious about the lot of them, they need outrage, they create outrage and Muslims are an easy "safe" target that they can get to go all feminist and defender of the working class from their high horses

 

[TahDan]

You're playing the man mate - whether you like him or not (and I personally don't like him an awful lot either frankly after what he did the the Fairfax papers), there is a consistent moral equivalence to what the South Africans did to blacks and how Saudi Arabia treats women and homosexuals - not to mention apostates. Much more of an equivalence than the US prison system or our treatment of boat people for instance.

What about that isn't troubling? Sure, there's a myriad of awful places in the world, but Saudi Arabia is hosting a big soccer match with one of our soccer teams, so why shouldn't questions be asked about them and their appalling regime?

 

[fatprop]

The difference?

Well to me, SA blacks were actually fighting for their rights, there was an armed opposition, a guy called Mandela jailed etc.

Saudi? what women's opposition is there to support? it feels too much like telling them what is good for them. What we see as wrong, they see as the cultural norm that goes back to before before Islam was created.

 

[TahDan]

The difference?

Well to me, SA blacks were actually fighting for their rights, there was an armed opposition, a guy called Mandela jailed etc.

Saudi? what women's opposition is there to support? it feels too much like telling them what is good for them. What we see as wrong, they see as the cultural norm that goes back to before before Islam was created.

To be honest, I think it's got a lot more to do with the need for oil security and religious sensitivity than than lack of an armed female guerrilla force; the country is critical for US bases, and we get a little uneasy telling people from regions Western powers have bombed about oppression.

But in reality the women of Saudi Arabia are much like the population of North Korea, in a plight that will see little media attention for the fact its a bit of a reporting black hole (so you just don't know how much opposition really exists) and because it's simply too complex a problem politically.

All the same, if you believe in any notion of fundamental human rights, then the brainwashing of victims shouldn't be used to mitigate the scale of the abuse. And in terms of the nature, scale and its systematic application, this is very much in the 'apartheid' category of oppression - we're just a little more comfortable telling fellow whites off when it comes to such matters.

 

[Rob42]

Do we boycott because we just don't want to associate with a country like Saudi Arabia, or because we think it will be effective in changing that country?

The sporting boycott of South Africa was effective because white South Africans saw themselves as part of the civilised, Western world, and loved their rugby and cricket. Taking those things away from them hurt - and it emphasised to them, in a very emotive way, that their actions were not those of a civilised society. I just don't think it would be as effective against Saudi Arabia - do they see themselves as part of the Western world, and do they care about their sport as much as the South Africans?

And let's not be hypocritical and boycott sport with them whilst we continue to buy their oil. Once we've undertaken a complete trade boycott, we then need to go through the world and impose boycotts on every other country that doesn't reach our moral standards. It's going to be a long list, and I don't think ending international trade is going to help any of these countries become better places.

 

[TahDan]

Do we boycott because we just don't want to associate with a country like Saudi Arabia, or because we think it will be effective in changing that country?

The sporting boycott of South Africa was effective because white South Africans saw themselves as part of the civilised, Western world, and loved their rugby and cricket. Taking those things away from them hurt - and it emphasised to them, in a very emotive way, that their actions were not those of a civilised society. I just don't think it would be as effective against Saudi Arabia - do they see themselves as part of the Western world, and do they care about their sport as much as the South Africans?

And let's not be hypocritical and boycott sport with them whilst we continue to buy their oil. Once we've undertaken a complete trade boycott, we then need to go through the world and impose boycotts on every other country that doesn't reach our moral standards. It's going to be a long list, and I don't think ending international trade is going to help any of these countries become better places.

That's a very fair point Rob42. If we were to take any action, it would have to be wide ranging and consistent, and also with a view that it could actually affect some change. With that in mind it's probably a bit much to expect it to start with a soccer team.

 

[I like to watch]

Who are we to preach?
I'm surprised other countries are not boycotting us, in respect to our treatment of refugees.

 

[TahDan]

Who are we to preach?
I'm surprised other countries are not boycotting us, in respect to our treatment of refugees.

Perhaps they should. It'd probably be effective against us... .

 

[formerflanker]

Who are we to preach?
I'm surprised other countries are not boycotting us, in respect to our treatment of refugees.

Well the other countries you refer to didn't boycott us while 1100 boat people died in the 6 years of Labor Government.
I assume our playing partners believe that poor conditions on land are preferable to drowning at sea.

 

[formerflanker]

The difference?

Well to me, SA blacks were actually fighting for their rights, there was an armed opposition, a guy called Mandela jailed etc.

Saudi? what women's opposition is there to support? it feels too much like telling them what is good for them. What we see as wrong, they see as the cultural norm that goes back to before before Islam was created.

Just because the women in Saudi Arabia are not fighting for their rights, does not make the situation OK.
Repressive laws, religious police, lashes for a teenager who was raped, banned from voting, actively prevented from driving, swimming; the list of anti-women laws and customs goes on. We can make judgements about Saudi Arabia's persecution of women without waiting for the women there to rise up in armed struggle.

 

[fatprop]

Just because the women in Saudi Arabia are not fighting for their rights, does not make the situation OK.
Repressive laws, religious police, lashes for a teenager who was raped, banned from voting, actively prevented from driving, swimming; the list of anti-women laws and customs goes on. We can make judgements about Saudi Arabia's persecution of women without waiting for the women there to rise up in armed struggle.

true, but I was asked about the difference between the two "struggles"

 

[formerflanker]

true, but I was asked about the difference between the two "struggles"

Understood.

 

[ChargerWA]

Also, why just target Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia isn't the problem, religion is.

 

[lincoln]

Also, why just target Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia isn't the problem, religion is.

So culturally based discrimination against women and homosexuals is ok in your world but not race based discrimination?

 

[fatprop]

So religious based discrimination against women and homosexuals is ok in your world but not race based discrimination?

it isn't religious, it is cultural (well tribal), the religion absorbed the cultural mores of the area, in that area. The countries wealth has allowed them to perpetuate their tribal culture

It is just a more visual representation of the type discrimination against women and homosexuals that happens around the world, including Aus, in some segments, where looney bronze age religions use cultural mores to control their women's vaginas.