Wobblies v pumas - is Salta at altitude edition

[Derpus]

There's been a lot of spotlight on the administration and coaching strategies and structures this RC (and rightfully so) but I think our struggles have been exacerbated by a simultaneous form slump in key positions. Guys like Beale, Coleman, and Taf have been way below their best while many others have not been able to replicate the form that got them the jersey in the first place (Koroibete, Hodge, Fainga'a etc.).

When these guys get their mojo back I'm confident we'll be amongst the top teams. We might not be able to dominate unless the underlying issues are solved but we've got the talent to be a World Cup finalist. I'm hopeful that the going so close to the brink in Argentina might spark a resurgence in the form of some our players.

There are a few players in key positions that should be available next year which will also help.

Having Dempsey available at 6, Naisarani at 8, Potentially McMahon, potentially Luke Jones.

TK and Kerevi back.

I know he has his flaws but i still sort of wish we had Big T available this year, particularly given Koroibete's form and our inability to finish chances.

 

[Slim 293]

I do find it strange considering Korobeite's poor form that Banks didn't get off the bench on Saturday..........

 

[barbarian]

Hey, Barbarian, serious question. Are you getting enjoyment out of the Sydney and NSW Country teams' efforts in the NRC? I will be quite impressed if you say you are, given their altogether disappointing tournaments to date.

No, they haven't won a game between them. Actually that's not true - Country beat Sydney a few weeks ago. That wasn't a bad game, to be fair, and I did enjoy it. So on the whole I have enjoyed it a little bit, but not much.

What I'm trying to say is it's fine to be disappointed/angry about a loss. But a win? You have to at least try and enjoy that, for a few hours at least.

It doesn't mean you are blind to the team's shortcomings (both in the game and in general).
.

 

[Up the Guts]

There are a few players in key positions that should be available next year which will also help.

Having Dempsey available at 6, Naisarani at 8, Potentially McMahon, potentially Luke Jones.

TK and Kerevi back.

I know he has his flaws but i still sort of wish we had Big T available this year, particularly given Koroibete's form and our inability to finish chances.

Taqele was the best attacking player in Super Rugby and, for all the criticism of his defence, I'm not sure there were any games where he was found out--the Crusaders tried turning him around and all they found was Folau parked behind him returning the ball with interest.

Unfortunately, given the way we use our wingers in defence I don't think Taqele would have been considered if available aside from being a super sub. It's a shame because the Waratahs built a game plan around "give it to T" and it worked.

 

[Derpus]

Surely he wouldn't be as successful at test level though. I think he's far more exciting as a 23 than Banks or Maddocks. Imagine looking to your bench and bringing on Latu, Tupou and Big T (and in a perfect world McMahon). Talk about impact.

Anyway, wishful thinking.

 

[Lorenzo]

So there's this:

There's been a lot of spotlight on the administration and coaching strategies and structures this RC (and rightfully so) but I think our struggles have been exacerbated by a simultaneous form slump in key positions. Guys like Beale, Coleman, and Taf have been way below their best while many others have not been able to replicate the form that got them the jersey in the first place (Koroibete, Hodge, Fainga'a etc.).

When these guys get their mojo back I'm confident we'll be amongst the top teams. We might not be able to dominate unless the underlying issues are solved but we've got the talent to be a World Cup finalist. I'm hopeful that the going so close to the brink in Argentina might spark a resurgence in the form of some our players.

But also:

We're at 42.1% because the general quality of our players is just not that good and nor are the structures they are using -- that is not a counterintuitive statement. It's exactly the same as saying the Sunwolves have a very low win rate in Super because the general quality of their players is below the rest of the competition sides and changing a couple of positions for them is not going to help them improve their win rate in any meaningful way.

Edit: anyway, I can't see your position changing and won't bother going round in circles trying to convince you otherwise.

Having difficulty reconciling these two posts. Are we a couple of mojo turns away from being amongst the top, or is it a general quality issue?

 

[Derpus]

Those statements are completely consistent.

Note in the first he alludes to the structural issues discussed in the second, stating we will never dominate until they are resolved.

 

[Lorenzo]

"We're at 42.1% because the general quality of our players is just not that good"

"but we've got the talent to be a World Cup finalist"

No, they aren't. In the other thread, the context was that we had fallen behind in development (you were big on that too) and that therefore things were going to be shit for a generation.

Now, we just need the boys to have a good night or two and we are back around the top? Sorry, but it's either one or the other.

 

[Derpus]

Man talking to you is a distinctly unpleasant experience.

Ciao.

 

[Braveheart81]

Now, we just need the boys to have a good night or two and we are back at the top? Sorry, but it's either one or the other.

I disagree.

We've got enough good players that if the key players can coincide some excellent form and we have the vast majority of our best players available we can make a serious run at a tournament over a short period of time and can beat anyone on our day.

We don't have the quality of players to be consistently amongst the best couple of sides right now though and beat good teams when we don't play well.

A lot has to come together for us to be a serious contender at the RWC next year but I don't think it is an impossibility. If we top our pool we have a good path to the final. That's a short period of time though. I don't think we have the players to do that on an ongoing basis. We just don't have the depth or quality.

 

[Lorenzo]

I disagree.

We've got enough good players that if the key players can coincide some excellent form and we have the vast majority of our best players available we can make a serious run at a tournament over a short period of time and can beat anyone on our day.

We don't have the quality of players to be consistently amongst the best couple of sides right now though and beat good teams when we don't play well.

A lot has to come together for us to be a serious contender at the RWC next year but I don't think it is an impossibility. If we top our pool we have a good path to the final. That's a short period of time though. I don't think we have the players to do that on an ongoing basis. We just don't have the depth or quality.

I think that if we have the players to turn it for a tournament (i.e, it be a possibility that we are serious contender), we have the players to be better than 42% over a three year period.

There's a decent gap between what we are now and have been for a while now and "consistently amongst the best couple of sides".

This brings us back to the coaching fiasco, but anytime anyone here says that being ranked 7th and averaging 4X % over a three period is unacceptable, you are immediately accused of suggesting that a simple coaching change will launch us to the top of the world rankings.

 

[Lorenzo]

Man talking to you is a distinctly unpleasant experience.

Ciao.

And having to rebut your constant bullshit can be tiring too, if I'm honest.

 

[Up the Guts]

So there's this:



But also:



Having difficulty reconciling these two posts. Are we a couple of mojo turns away from being amongst the top, or is it a general quality issue?

We can be competitive as we were against Ireland when our players are on song, when they’re not we lack the depth to draft in suitable replacements leading to considerable inconsistencies as we’ve seen this year.

Edit: perhaps I was a little over optimistic saying we’d be amongst the top teams, I think we can beat them on our day but not consistently.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think that if we have the players to turn it for a tournament (i.e, it be a possibility that we are serious contender), we have the players to be better than 42% over a three year period.

There's a decent gap between what we are now and have been for a while now and "consistently amongst the best couple of sides".

I absolutely agree that we have the players to have a better record over the last three years than we have now.

I think the gap between our dismal win percentage and one that does see us ranked 2nd or 3rd isn't that great when we play NZ x 3, SA x 2, and 3 of Eng, Ire, Wal, Sco pretty much every year.

I would say that if we started winning 55% of our tests we'd get back to 2nd in the world before too long.

 

[dru]

I disagree.

We've got enough good players that if the key players can coincide some excellent form and we have the vast majority of our best players available we can make a serious run at a tournament over a short period of time and can beat anyone on our day.
H
We don't have the quality of players to be consistently amongst the best couple of sides right now though and beat good teams when we don't play well.

A lot has to come together for us to be a serious contender at the RWC next year but I don't think it is an impossibility. If we top our pool we have a good path to the final. That's a short period of time though. I don't think we have the players to do that on an ongoing basis. We just don't have the depth or quality.

Now I would could this post optimistic, but the difference is it comes from just a touch of realism. I'm happy to concur with everything in it and in that sense share the optimism.

* * *

We should avoid the temptation of ditching Cheika at this stage. We should keep the pressure on for him to perform though. Hold the guy until a new bloke can be found on a rational programme giving the guy a chance, not just a sprint to the RWC. And for God's sake find the right bloke.

 

[Lorenzo]

Definitely. Wales is now #3 and their 3 year average is 56%.

 

[Brumby Runner]

No, they haven't won a game between them. Actually that's not true - Country beat Sydney a few weeks ago. That wasn't a bad game, to be fair, and I did enjoy it. So on the whole I have enjoyed it a little bit, but not much.

What I'm trying to say is it's fine to be disappointed/angry about a loss. But a win? You have to at least try and enjoy that, for a few hours at least.

It doesn't mean you are blind to the team's shortcomings (both in the game and in general).
.

Sure, but do you not have some critical thoughts about how the NSW sides are going, and feel at least a little frustrated.

This is possibly not the right thread for the discussion but it does relate to how some fans react to the usual poor performances of the Wallabies.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Definitely. Wales is now #3 and their 3 year average is 56%.

while going 0 for 3 v us, 0 for 4 v NZ, 0 for 4 v Eng and 1 for 3 v ireland

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

This Wallabies squad has enough talent IMHO to beat anyone when they click. The problem has been the lack of consistency in their performances and I think the structure/game plan they're playing to. It seems a bit one-dimensional to me and they don't seem to have developed a way to adjust when the situation demands it. A lack of "playing what's in front of you", perhaps. I think the criticism of not playing test match style footy is valid too (kicking for territory, trucking it up for a few phases before going wide, taking the points when on often more often than kicking for touch) and to me that's a sign of a lack of maturity in the leadership.

All that said, when they are on and firing together it's great footy.

 

[KOB1987]

while going 0 for 3 v us, 0 for 4 v NZ, 0 for 4 v Eng and 1 for 3 v ireland

Yes, it's mainly due to that win over Ireland and beating Sth Africa B in the USA