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Monday’s Rugby News

Monday’s Rugby News

Queens Birthday’s Rugby News looks at the penultimate round of the Super Rugby season, the Junior Wallabies continue their Under 20 World Championships campaign, a wrap up of rugby around the country and the Folau saga continues.


Super Rugby recap

Bryce Hegarty

Bryce Hegarty

Round 17 served up a case of deja vu from the previous round with the Bulls once again drawing in the opening encounter of the round against the Highlanders. This was a close counter in which the boys from Dunedin raced out to a 19-7 lead before the Bulls fought their way back to earn a draw after a 75th minute try to replacement hooker Jaco Visagie.

The next match saw a battle of the primary colours at Suncorp Stadium, with the Reds snatching victory against the Blues 29-28. The Blues controlled the first half of the match, leading 21-5 after 25 minutes. However, the Reds maintained their composure and clawed their way back, with Scott Higginbottom rewarded for his long service to the game with the match-winning try. Check out Ben’s review of the thrilling contest.

In the first match of the weekend, the Crusaders molly-whopped an under-strengthed Rebels side 66-0. The Rebels missed 38 tackles in an error-ridden performance which saw the Crusaders run in 11 tries to dent any finals aspirations that the Rebels would have held. For further analysis, check out GoMelbRebels match report from Christchurch

This was followed by an Australian derby in which the Brumbies secured the Australian Conference with a dominant 35-24 victory over the Waratahs. The Brumbies blew out the Waratahs in the first half, running in 28 unanswered points to secure their 6th win in 7 games over the lacklustre Waratahs. For a more detailed report of the match, check our my thoughts here.

The Hurricanes would then secure the fourth home quarter-final with a 37-17 win over the Lions. The ‘Canes were impressive in the victory, despite losing Beauden Barrett to injury before kickoff, with human tank Ben Lam and replacement hooker Dane Coles securing braces to help them cruise to the win.

The Stormers would then host the Sunwolves at Newlands to finish off the South Africian leg of the round, with the Stormers pulling off an impressive performance to secure a 31-18 win. The Stormers dominated from the start of the match, racing out to a 21-6 lead, however, the Sunwolves hung tough to prevent the Stormers from recording the all-important bonus point.

In the final game of the round, the Jaguares have secured the South African conference with a dominant 34-7 win over the Sharks in Buenos Aires. The Jaguares never looked threatened throughout this match, running away with an easy victory on the back of doubles from Emiliano Boffelli and Sebastian Cancelliere, to maintain that all-important second spot on the ladder.

Junior Wallabies outclass brave Ireland

Junior Wallabies defend

Junior Wallabies defend

The Junior Wallabies have secured a spot in the Under 20s World Championships, after recording a 45-17 win over Ireland.

Australia opened up an early 10 point lead after Irish Lock Ryan Baird was red carded early in the first half for a high tackle.

However, the Irish would hang tough, peppering the Junior Wallabies line in the lead up to the half-time break, with Craig Casey scampering over to reduce the margin back to 10-7.

They would dominate the start of the second half, with Stewart Moore barging over to give them an unlikely 17-10 lead.

The turning point of this match would ultimately come in the 55th minute, where the Junior Wallabies finally broke the brave Irish defence with Semisi Tupou offloading to Reds and Junior Wallabies fullback Isaac Lucas to level the scores.

From this point, the Junior Wallabies controlled the encounter and they ran riot over the tired Irish defence, with back to back tries to Mark Nawaqanitawase and Nick Frost in the space of five minutes pushing the scoreline out to 31-17.

Tries to Will Harrison and Frost in the final 10 minutes secured the bonus point and the 45-17 win.

The bonus point win ensures that the Junior Wallabies will qualify at the top of Pool B, after England scrapped home a victory against a brave Italy.

Junior Wallabies 45

Tries: Nick Frost 2, Sione Tui, Isaac Lucas, Mark Nawaqanitawase, Will Harrison

Cons: Will Harrison 6

Pens: Harrison

Cards: Sione Tui (yellow 15′)

Ireland 17

Tries: Craig Casey, Stewart Moore

Cons: Jake Flannery, Ben Healy

Pens: Flannery

Cards: Ryan Baird (red 20′)

Rugby around the country (and pacific)

AJ Alatimu offloads

AJ Alatimu offloads

With many competitions taking the week off for the Queen’s Birthday long weekend, such as the Dewer Shield (Vic) and the Coopers Premiership (SA) we start in NSW where the Shute Shield has once again thrown up some thrilling encounters.

Round 10 of the comp saw Norths kick a penalty in the dying moments to beat Easts 18-17, Manly hold off a valiant Gordon 31-27, Warringah close out a tight win over West Harbour 30-24, Eastwood continues Souths dismal run with a 56-21 victory and finally Sydney Uni asserted their dominance over the comp and Randwick, winning 40-18.

In round 10 of the John I Dent Cup, Gungahlin outclassed Easts 42-8, Uni held off a valiant West outfit 26-19 and the Vikings pulled off the big result of the round, thumping the ladder leading Royals 54-17.

Round 11 of the Hospital Challenge Cup had Sunnybank upset Wests 25-20, GPS got their revenge over Easts 24-22, Queensland defeat Bond in the battle of the Uni’s 29-17 and Brothers outclass Souths 38-26 to claim the inaugural Bola Kefu Memorial Shield.

Over to the west, round 10 of the tightly contested Fortescue Cup saw Wests hold off Wanneroo 7-5, Associates upset UWA 28-7, Coastal Cavaliers record their first win of the year over fellow cellar dwellers Curtin Uni 47-6, Palmyra convincing beat Southern Lions 37-14, Cottesloe hold on to the top place with a tight win over Joondalup 15-14, Nedlands took care of Bayswater 43-6 and finally Kalamunda beat ARK’s 30-26.

Whilst we’re talking about the west, Fiji held on in a classic encounter against Samoa 37-31 in the latest instalment of the Global Rapid Rugby series. Fiji cruised out to a 24-5 lead after 30 minutes after tries to Tagi, Manu Dolokoto and Sauni. However, Samoa kept in the fight throughout the second half, reducing the margin back to 5 points. In the end, Fiji showed their experience and class to put them back to the top of the Pacific Showcase Series ladder.

Folau takes RA to court

Folau in flight.

Folau in flight.

Israel Folau has confirmed the worse kept secret, deciding to take Rugby Australia to Fair Work Australia over his sacking.

Folau’s was handed a contract breach on April 10th for his controversial use of social media, before a code of conduct hearing last month found him guilty, allowing Rugby Australia and NSW Rugby to terminate his contract.

The panel determined that Folau had committed a “high level” breach of his contract after taking to Instagram last month to proclaim hell awaits for “drunks, homosexuals, adulterers, liars, fornicators, thieves, atheists, idolators”.

However, Folau and his lawyers have chosen to take it to the Fair Work Commission, citing Section 772 of the Fair Work Act with the idea that it was unlawful to terminate his contract based on his religious beliefs.

Folau will be looking to claim up to $10 million in damages, including a full payout of his four-year deal that was worth $1.2 million per year, arguing that the termination has cost him the golden years of his career.

“The termination has cost Mr Folau the best years of his rugby career, participation at the Rugby World Cup, the chance to become the greatest Wallaby tryscorer (a decades-old record he was likely to break) and the associated exposure and opportunities,” the claim reads.

“As well as around $5 million in lost salary, Mr Folau will claim in respect of the loss of these opportunities (renewal of contract, sponsorships, etc).”

Rugby Australia defended the decision to terminate his contract, reaffirming their stance that his actions left them with no choice due to the damage that his actions had on the sport.

“It is important to make clear that Rugby Australia and NSW Rugby did not choose to be in a position where they are forced to divert significant resources to defend the ongoing legal action taken by Israel, but his action leaves the game with no choice,” the statement read.

  • Steve

    Oh man, Israel determined to ride this train past the last stop.

    Knowing one of the legal staff involved in the case, I somewhat feel for him – He genuinely takes the scripture as literal truth and thinks he was trying to perform a public service by passing on the good word. But lack of understanding didn’t stop me from getting tinned from my first job (I mean, why the fuck would flammable and inflammable mean the same thing), and it won’t save him.

    • Parker

      Pure gold. Your tolerance, self knowledge and ability to learn are exemplary.

      • Steve

        “Some answers can only be known by he who truly knows himself, but some are about a third of the way through Webster’s”

    • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies
    • A sad story now for sure.
      IMHO, Izzy put the post up either thinking himself above the basic rules or he is simple of character and been used to push a very dated point.
      Personally, I hope the courts show him no special treatment and consider that if most of us average working stiffs were sacked (rightly) for twice posting hate speech, we wouldn’t get any payout just a march-out.

      • Timbo

        Hate speech. Ironically the concept of hate speech comes from totalitarian ideology commonly used in the soviet Gulags and Maoist re-education camps to stop the spread of things like Christianity.

        • joy

          And North Korea’s elimination program, Gaddafi”s only me program, Venezuela’s you need me oath, Cuba’s it’s all about you con, China’s tank wipe-out, Zimbabwe’s I will never go away pledge, Russia’s horse back muscle flexing and dozens more. All anti family, anti religious, anti free speech and anti you. What more do our home grown neo Marxists want?

        • Dud Roodt

          You sound unhinged.

      • Pearcewreck

        What basic rules?
        Where is the hate speech?

        • Peter Morse

          One man’s hate speech is another man’s love speech………..

        • Dud Roodt

          So if he’d said all black people are going to hell, would that have been hate speech or just his beliefs?

      • joy

        “IMHO ….. twice hate speech”! In my opinion humble for Christ’s sake, aren’t you bordering on hate? The man’s a saint and the powers that be will reinforce religious freedom in law. The unwashed will tag it “God’s Law”, a call that an inherently humble Izzy will be at ease.

    • Yowie

      It’s my genuine earnest belief that I can distribute/eat any of my colleagues lunches in the work fridge “loaves and fishes” style.

      I’ve been sternly warned about it by the boss, but I’ll do it again and see where that gets me.

      • GO THE Q REDS

        But what if it’s still illegal to fire him for eating the fishes…..
        People’s opinions on his beliefs mean diddly squat! The Law protects different beliefs for a reason….. and everyone should respect that. Meanwhile a Wallabies Tag was caught 3times of the limit drunk at the wheel of his car….asleep a block from RA headquarters and he’s free to play rugby with full support from RA!
        “damage the game” my arse…

        • disqus_NMX

          The problem is more that, in this case, one person’s right to religious freedom, conflicts with another’s right to not be discriminated against due to sexual orientation.

          I’m sure we’re all very curious to see if he gets his $10m or not.

        • Moz

          I think I would describe more than being merely curious….

        • Yowie

          Do you go to hell if you’re “merely curious”?

          Asking for a friend.

        • Hoss

          Depends if you ‘push back’ I did in prison, but it’s a long story.

        • Yowie

          That fellow was just helping me climb over a fence.

        • Kiwi rugby lover

          That only counts if you also smile

        • Hoss

          I think i am off to hell anyway. I celebrated a Queens birthday today, so ipso-facto….

        • From NooZealand

          LOL – is it a long “story” or something else was long? LOL

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          No, the problem is that it is not clear whether the law protects Folau in this instance. If it did, RA wouldn’t have even tried terminating his contract, they would have either fined him or paid him out.

        • GO THE Q REDS

          They allready tried paying him out with a 2million payout…. which they denied for some reason and has since been confirmed.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          $1 million from memory. Instead, Folau has gambled trying to get $4 million.

        • Pearcewreck

          No, they sacked him because Allan Joyce said too.

        • Dud Roodt

          Can you show proof of that? All the Folau supporters seem to say Joyce got involved straight away (while also making sure to make some comment about him being in some sort of gay mafia or the like) and demanded Folau he fired.
          I might have missed when he did that so would love some of the news articles on him demanding Folau be sacked

        • Pearcewreck

          If is wasn’t Allan Joyce forcing them too, than why did they raise the issue in the first place?
          Why did they bring this fight on?

          It can’t be some sort of holier than thou, moralistic reason because:
          a) if it was, how can they possibly allow Tolu Latu any where near the game?
          b) How can Kurtley Beale be allowed any where near the game?
          c) Why did they offer him $1M to go away? All moral high ground was lost right there.
          So it just can’t be some sort of moral reasoning. It is also so self contradictory.
          Is it because Rugby is an inclusive sport?
          It can’t be because:

          a) His post mentioned nothing about Rugby.
          b) He never said any one was prevented from playing Rugby.
          So it can’t be that.
          So why Dud?
          Why did they sack him?
          Occam’s Razor points to Allan Joyce.

        • joy

          Great rant. Spot on.

        • Pearcewreck

          Thanks joy.

        • Dud Roodt

          Right, so no proof whatsoever then? Thought so.

          Perhaps they sacked him because he did something he’d been asked not to do previously?
          Perhaps they sacked him because they are trying to promote an inclusive game, and when your most famous player says that a certain group of those being targeted by the inclusivity they’re trying to promote are going to hell for being who they are, it doesn’t gel with what the organisation (i.e. his employer) stands for.
          Perhaps it was because their major sponsor (i.e. the people who keep the lights on in the building didn’t want a significant portion of their investment going to a homophobe who doesn’t align with their ethical stance.

          perhaps it was all 3 and many more. But primarily I think you’ll find it was because he did something he’d been warned not to do. Which makes him one of three things; and idiot, a liar, or both.

          Having a quote from him saying that if the relationship was ever untenable he would walk away, and now seeing his actions, I guess that proves that at the very least, he’s a liar.

          To cover off your last points;

          a) His post mentioned nothing about Rugby. This is correct, but he is representing his employer in everything he does. This is why they have social media policies in their contracts. I’m not sure of your employment status, but if you work for a company with a decent workforce, you likely have a social media policy worked into your contract, I know I do. And I can assure you my employer wouldn’t allow me to say gay people are going to hell. And certainly not twice.
          b) He never said any one was prevented from playing Rugby. That’s correct, he didn’t. But surely you can see that if the highest profile employee of a company says you’re going to hell for who you are, chances are you don’t want to work with that person?
          So it can’t be that.
          So why Dud? Reasons above
          Why did they sack him? Reasons above
          Occam’s Razor points to Allan Joyce. Just so you’re aware, Allan Joyce is a CEO, he doesn’t have carte blanche to make any decision he sees fit for Qantas, he has a board to respond to. If they weren’t happy with how he handled this, he would be fired.

        • Andrew Luscombe

          Izzy didn’t say gay people are going to hell.

        • Dud Roodt

          Oh, I thought he said “hell awaits you” to people who are gay?

        • Andrew Luscombe

          Yes. Hell is waiting for anyone not sorry for the sinning tendencies they were born with (‘original sin’ which everyone has in their own way). That doesn’t mean any particular person or group is necesarily going to hell, just that it is ready and waiting for them in case. It was a warning.

        • Dud Roodt

          Right, and what are gay people going to hell for? If it’s not for being gay, why were they included on the list?

        • Andrew Luscombe

          They would go for not being sorry for giving in to their ‘earthly desires’ which is likely to have included sex for non reproductive purposes (as for most people). To avoid hell, people need to know that those activities are something to be sorry for so that they can be sorry. Hence the warning. May as well identify some common forms of non reproductive sex by name in a catchy list to be sure people know what is being spoken of.

          P.S don’t blame me. I didn’t make this stuff up.

        • Dud Roodt

          Yeah, so I wonder why he didn’t mention all people who have sex for non-reproductive reasons? Seems a bit unfair.
          Or it seems like he was saying being gay is the sin

        • Andrew Luscombe

          Who did he leave out? I’m sure you can think of something, but his list was only 7 or 8 items long and 3 were for that. He’s clearly not trying to list all possible sins – he left out revilers and gluttons for example, but it seems a fairly balanced overview list given you’d want to keep it shortish to remain catchy while retaining a focus on the more common sins.

        • Dud Roodt

          I don’t think you’re following what I’m saying.
          If he only included gay people in light of them having sex for non-reproductive reasons, why didn’t he just say “Anyone who has sex for non-reproductive reasons” – why single out gay people if he was targeting everyone who does that?

        • Andrew Luscombe

          It doesn’t fit well in the list. It is 6 words wide and has a very different feel to the other items. His three words cover it within the confines and style of his list. It’s not likely he thought of putting a 6 word item in there in the first place.

          He’s not singling anyone out. There’s a lot of people in the list.

          He didn’t use the word gay at all either. Homosexual is anyone who has sex with the same gender which could be for money or any of a range of reasons, but it does include mostly gay people.

          I can’t say exactly what he was thinking. It’s whatever he thought looked good at the time. But if you think his main point, or even one of his points, was to say or imply ‘gay people are going to hell’ then you’re wrong. It was a wide ranging warning, and yes it was aimed in part at people who have sex with the same gender.

          Even RA recognise that. They just think he said it in a way that he should have realised would be missunderstood by some and thereby cause offence and even harm.

        • Dud Roodt

          It’s definitely weird if he wasn’t targeting homosexuals with that list though don’t you think?
          Like, if I created a list of people who I thought were going to hell, and on it I said “people with brown hair, hell awaits you” and brown haired people got upset, it would be weird if I said “oh no, I meant all people with any type of hair, I targeted you lot because it fits in my list better”.
          It would certainly seem to brown haired people like I was targeting them, I’m sure.

          It also seems that as homosexuals make up such a small percentage of society, he would have had a much greater effect going after straight people who have sex for non-reproductive reasons, no?

          Unless of course it was that he was just targeting homosexuals of course.

        • Andrew Luscombe

          Adulterors and fornicators are people who have sex for fun and were on his list. So to use your analogy it’s like he said people with blond hair, red hair and dark hair are going to hell when he thinks all people with hair are going to hell. And if there was a single word for each of them, but it takes 6 words to specify them as a group, then it’s not that strange to list them individually.

        • Dud Roodt

          But somehow straight people who aren’t adulterers or fornicators didn’t make the list…
          Interesting.

          I find it an odd thing to do, to try and pretend he wasn’t saying that being homosexual is the sin. It’s quite clear, so a very off hill to die on indeed

        • Andrew Luscombe

          Homsexual acts are a sin, and he implied that. There’s no difference between a category of sin and the list of sins in that category – they are different ways of specifying the same thing. With adultory and fornication he’s covered a big chunk of heterosexual sins and it shows that his message isn’t primarily about gay people.

          Denying the word of god is also a sin in his religion, so he can’t retract it. His words are similar to a particular bible passage. I don’t see why he couldn’t replace his words with something else less suseptible to being exaggerated or misunderstood, but it hasn’t happened yet, and it’s not clear it would save his rugby career anyway.

        • Dud Roodt

          Right, so his opinion is that being a homosexual is “wrong” and being heterosexual is not. It’s bigotry. He even admitted himself he knew the post would hurt people.

          Denying the word of god might be a sin – but I’m almost certain there’s nothing in there saying you have to copy and paste particularly topics from the book. He chose which one to reproduce, and he’s suffering the consequences of his actions.

        • Andrew Luscombe

          No. He has a list of doers of acts that are sins. Some of them involve heterosexuals giving in to their sexual desires, and one of them involves gay people giving in to their sexual desires. Most heterosexual desires are sinful too, but not all, because Christians see ‘responsible’ reproduction as an important activity in furtherance of gods creation. Gay people are allowed to reproduce too, they just maybe don’t like doing the act that causes it, and that’s pretty much the definition of gay. That’s Christianity 101.

          His problem is that his words appear to many to say ‘gays are going to hell’ and that the media has caused a fuss, and sponsors don’t want to sponsor.

          You are correct that he did not have to quote or paraphrase any particular passage. But it is part of his religion to spread the word of god, and it was only a matter of time before he said something involving gay people. He should have chosen his words better.

        • Dud Roodt

          It appears neither of us are going to comprehend the other’s argument. Suffice it to say, that in my opinion, when you say someone is a sinner for their biological wiring, you are a bigot. Whether an old book tells you so or not.

        • Andrew Luscombe

          I understand your point, and I would agree if Christianity was more like an earthly governance body trying to enforce rules or something. But it isn’t.

          Everybody is a sinner and they are that way because of their biological wiring. That’s how Christianity defines sin. Sinning isn’t like breaking laws, and sinning alone doesn’t get you sent to hell or even punished in any way. It’s all about trying and being sorry when failing. Anyone can ignore it if they wish.

          Anyway. Good discussion. Thanks.

        • Pearcewreck

          Dud,
          1. They told him not too, but then they also let him write an article on that sports forum whose name alludes me just now, (was it The Roar or Player’s Voice) where he said basically the same stuff. RA let him do that. No punishment. Why? Because Allan Joyce didn’t see that article.

          2. Inclusive game, yeah right. Let’s be inclusive of repeat offender criminals like Latu, repeat offenders like Beale but lets be completely not inclusive of any one who disagrees with the party line.
          3. You are getting closer to the truth there, it was all to do with the sponsor who pays the bills to keep the lights on.
          4. For the 50millionth time, stop cherry picking parts of IF post. He condemned all people, me most of all, you too.

          5. The quite that Drew Mitchell wheeled out was from months ago about a hypothetical situation. Have you ever changed you mind on an issue? He changed his mind. So what? That is not lying. Or should we lock in ever opinion you have right now, and if you ever change your mind you will be publicly called a liar. That would not be fair. Every one is free to change their mind on all sorts of issues. This really is a disgraceful effort from Drew Mitchell, and Tug Boat as well.
          5. Really, …really? Do you represent your employer in everything you do? Do you really believe that? I mean, that is an incredible statement. It is his private life. He DOES NOT represent his employer in his private life. I can’t believe people like who say that he does. Have you really thought through the full implications of that statement through? Your employer does not control your private life. I just can’t believe any one would think that they do. Every court case to do with employees and social media that I have seen, has been linked to work. Here, there is no link to work. He didn’t mention RA, was not done at work, not on a work social media account. So nothing to do with work. Should be the same for you.

          6. As you say, he didn’t say any one was excluded from Rugby. In his private life, he can say what he wants. If anyone I work with says whatever they want in their private life … well… who cares. It is not at work … so not works business.

          Finally, I note with dismay that you are completely unable to acknowledge that IF condemned every person on the planet, NOT JUST gay people. But you are fixated on just gay people. I’m not sure why that is. Please take the blinkers off. We all have told lies, or cheated at sport or drunk too much or whatever. Me most of all.

          I am also dismayed that you are unable to acknowledge that the last two lines of IF post offered every one the chance to avoid hell. This is him IF showing love for all people. He warns all people that every one of us is gong to hell, me most of all, but then offers the way to avoid it. He is showing love for all. Also note in IF comments that went with the post, he speaks of the love of Jesus.
          Allan Joyce as CEO wll make day to day running decisions at the highest level.
          Very easy for him to have lunch with Raeleen and say if RA don’t sack him then Qantas pull their sponsorship dollars.

        • Dud Roodt

          1. How do you know he wasn’t reprimanded again for it? You also seem to know a lot about Allan Joyce’s movements

          2. They were punished? They also haven’t done what they were punished for again. IF was lucky, he didn’t even get punished the first time. Not many people have been that fortunate

          3. A very valid concern for any organisation that relies on sponsorship to survive

          4. And for the 51 millionth time – he chose to include people who can’t choose who they are along with people making decisions to sin every day. Do you not understand the difference? I know you won’t answer this, but if he had said “all black people, hell awaits”, would you be saying “but he included us all in that!! we’re all sinners like them!”? Again, I know you won’t answer, but I’ll put it out there for the 51 millionth time.

          5. Actually, the quote was from Folau, and in the very Player’s Voice article you referred to above, and this is the direct quote “After we’d all talked, I told Raelene if she felt the situation had become untenable – that I was hurting Rugby Australia, its sponsors and the Australian rugby community to such a degree that things couldn’t be worked through – I would walk away from my contract, immediately.” And here’s the article for your reference https://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/#UOtBwxQdzb5gHTAM.99. Doesn’t seem like Jesus would be very happy with him going back on his word like this, even with the little I understand of what people say Jesus was all about.

          6. What exactly is private about social media. Again, you can feel that it’s wrong for a company to have a social media policy. But your feelings don’t matter. They have them. And if I was racist or homophobic on mine, I would be fired for it. And I’m not someone who is afforded the great luxury of earning millions of dollars either.

          Finally, I note with dismay that you are completely unable to acknowledge that IF condemned every person on the planet, NOT JUST gay people. I hope I won’t need to explain this again, but if you include someone on a list of sins for their biology, you are being a bigot.

          I am also dismayed that you are unable to acknowledge that the last two lines of IF post offered every one the chance to avoid hell. Oh great! How lucky gay people must feel to have this option. So it’s just be gay and go to hell, or don’t be who you are biologically wired to be and you get saved! Yippee!

          Allan Joyce as CEO wll make day to day running decisions at the highest level.
          Very easy for him to have lunch with Raeleen and say if RA don’t sack him then Qantas pull their sponsorship dollars
          . Again, this is all just conjecture from you. You haven’t mounted one piece of evidence that Allan Joyce is pulling the strings behind the curtains other than your feelings. And why all the angst at Qantas? Are you not upset with all his other sponsors that sacked him? Was Allan Joyce behind all of that too?

        • Pearcewreck

          1. That has not been revealed. So, safe to assume he was not reprimanded for it. End of.
          2. Tolu Latu is a repeat offender, driving on a suspended license. What were you saying about them not doing what they were punished for again? End of.
          3. We sort of agree on this one. End of.
          4. Invalid point, he didn’t mention any one’s race. Irrelevant. End of.
          5. You completely fail to acknowledge that people, IF, you, me everyone can change their mind. He was referring to a potential future situation. Maybe it didn’t pan out the way he thought it might when he was making that point in the article. So what, he changed his mind. I ask again, have you ever changed your mind on any issue ever? I have. It is part of growing as a person, learning.
          6. Companies can have Social Media policies, but they must be work related one way or another. Who cares what I think? Look at the cases that have been decided in favour of the Employers, they all involve some link to work. IF post has zero link to his work. And that is why he will win the case. I believe the one case in favour of the employee that is most relevant is the Professor from James Cook Uni who was sacked because he didn’t “tow the party line” re the Great Barrier Reef. James Cook Uni sacked him. He took them to court. He won.
          https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sacking-of-james-cook-university-professor-was-unlawful-court-rules-20190416-p51etz.html

          IF included all people on his list of sinners, because we all have lied, we all have cheated at some time. I have, you have too. Lying is in our Biology, it is part f the human condition. All people are condemned by IF post. Are you strong enough to admit that you have ever lied? I have. So please, ditch the Biology argument, ditch the focusing on gay people.
          IF says ALL people go to hell in his post. Me most of all.

          Occam’s Razor points to Joyce.

        • Dud Roodt

          1. OK, happy to exclude the conjecture from this point, and we’ll remove all the conjecture regarding Joyce and Qantas’ involvement other than the things that have been revealed

          2. So Latu has been reprimanded by RA for drunk driving before? Hmm. That might explain why he was stood down and may not be at the World Cup, but I can’t find any reports of it – can you help out?

          3. We sort of agree on this one. End of.

          4. Just because you don’t want to argue the point, doesn’t make it irrelevant. He targeted a minority group due to their biology in the name of religion. Black people have suffered exactly the same fate for centuries. The correlation between the two is very strong and I know you know that. But if you don’t want to argue it, I understand. It would make me uncomfortable too, realising I was defending bigotry.

          5. Doesn’t change the fact he’s gone back on his word. It’s OK to admit that.

          6. Here’s a link of examples of people being fired for posts on social media and activities out of work hours, it might help clear it up for you https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/6-people-who-were-fired-for-social-media-posts/
          Here’s another case of a guy getting fired for organising a party on the central line in London – also outside work hours. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1023417/Facebook-Tube-party-ended-drunken-riot-organised-City-banker.html

          No, and nor have I ever said such a thing. Lying is a choice. Stealing is a choice. Cheating is a choice. Being gay isn’t. Do you get it now?
          So why did he differentiate gay people then? If gay people are there because they lie, cheat, steal etc, then why include them at all? Or is it being gay that makes them sinners? You might want to argue against science (in fact it seems science would be quite terrifying for you), but again, it doesn’t care about your feelings.

          Occam’s Razor points to Joyce. And I quote “That has not been revealed.

        • Pearcewreck

          4. Well considering, he may identify himself as “black”, I’m not sure what to say. This is tough, because he may feel he has been discriminated against because of his heritage, so….
          Then again, he may not. Point is, race is different.
          All of Folau’s post involve some sort of action, lying etc.
          Race does not involve any action as such.
          6. I think all of those involve some link to work, even the first one I think was on a work trip when she flew to South Africa. The gut on the underground is an unfortunate one. Almost funny actually. If he was sacked for that in Australia, I think he could mount a case in the courts that it was unfair dismissal.
          Just because some people don’t take it court doesn’t mean the sacking was correct.
          Some people don’t have the time or money for a legal challenge.
          Lying is not a choice, because every person on the planet has lied.
          Being an alcoholic or a drunk is not a choice either.

        • Dud Roodt

          Well he may, but he’d be wrong. To clear it up, let’s say all jews then shall we? I don’t think he can identify as a Jew.

          All of Folau’s post involve some sort of action, lying etc. Being a homosexual is an action? Is you walking around as a straight person an action?

          Race does not involve any action as such. And neither does one’s sexuality

          Just because some people don’t take it court doesn’t mean the sacking was correct. And just because some people do, doesn’t mean it wasn’t.

          Lying is not a choice, because every person on the planet has lied. You aren’t serious are you? You don’t think that someone lying is making a decision to lie? That is crazy if you think that.

          Being an alcoholic or a drunk is not a choice either. to drink excessively is very much a choice. To be gay isn’t. Just like being straight isn’t a choice.

        • Pearcewreck

          Being a homosexual is an action? Without being to graphic, there are certain actions that gay people do? There are certain actions that straight people do too. Me most of all. I’m married, but have I ever looked at another woman. Every day pretty much.

          You aren’t serious are you? You don’t think that someone lying is making a decision to lie? That is crazy if you think that. Yes, every single lie is a conscious thought, but it’s just that there are so many of them, as studies have shown, that overall it becomes guaranteed that you will lie, on average, every day of your life. It is often perfectly harmless, but we all do it all the time. So ultimately it gets to the stage that it is no longer a choice, we are all liars. Not by choice, we just are.

          to drink excessively is very much a choice. To be gay isn’t. Just like being straight isn’t a choice. That statement is borderline offensive. Being an alcoholic is not a choice, it is a disease, an illness. People do not choose to be alcoholics. Being alcoholic is not a choice. I am surprised at your lack of understanding of alcoholism to be honest. People are either alcoholics, or they are not. Just as people are gay or they are not. They are who they are, some gay people may choose to be celibate, some straight people may choose to be celibate, some alcoholics may choose to not drink. But they are who they are.

          So I state again, please move on from your fixation on the word gay in IF post. He condemns ALL people in his post.

          Anyhow, I feel like this thread is getting old. So if you reply and I don’t respond, please don’t be offended. I’m sure there will be more debate in new threads.
          Dud, I disagree with you, but I respect your right to free speech, and I respect your opinions and I respect your right to have those opinions.
          Debate and non-violent conflict can actually be a good thing.
          I am dismayed that RA did not allow IF to have his opinion or even debate with him.

        • Dud Roodt

          Without being to graphic, there are certain actions that gay people do? There are certain actions that straight people do too. Me most of all. I’m married, but have I ever looked at another woman. Every day pretty much. Again, we get back to my point – he is saying being a homosexual is a sin. He says nothing about a heterosexual being a sin.

          Yes, every single lie is a conscious thought, but it’s just that there are so many of them, as studies have shown, that overall it becomes guaranteed that you will lie, on average, every day of your life. It is often perfectly harmless, but we all do it all the time. That’s fine, I’m sure everyone does lie at some stage, but it is always a considered action taken by conscious decision making. Being a homosexual is not.

          So ultimately it gets to the stage that it is no longer a choice, we are all liars. Not by choice, we just are. This just isn’t true. It’s always a decision.

          That statement is borderline offensive. Being an alcoholic is not a choice, it is a disease, an illness. People do not choose to be alcoholics. Being alcoholic is not a choice. I am surprised at your lack of understanding of alcoholism to be honest. People are either alcoholics, or they are not. Just as people are gay or they are not. They are who they are, some gay people may choose to be celibate, some straight people may choose to be celibate, some alcoholics may choose to not drink. But they are who they are. You can be offended as much as you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that people are not born alcoholics. They may be predisposed to addiction, but generally speaking a choice was made to have a drink, a choice was made to drink more. Your lack of understanding of basic biology and science is borderline offensive. When someone goes to seek help for alcohol addiction, the therapists don’t say “sorry buddy, nothing we can do, you were born this way”. People are born gay. Just like people are born straight. What about this do you not understand. Your sympathy towards alcoholics and indignation at my “lack of understanding on the topic” is quite the irony given your lack of understanding about homosexuality and your lack of indignation about Israel Folau’s post. You also seem to be confused in your argument, as you defend IF’s position on saying all the people he listed going to hell, unless they repent, but you seem to be saying that an alcoholic has no choice in the matter? Seems a bit cruel to damn someone to hell for something they can’t help does it not?

          So I state again, please move on from your fixation on the word gay in IF post. He condemns ALL people in his post. Nah, I’m OK with not moving on from calling out bigotry.

          Anyhow, I feel like this thread is getting old. So if you reply and I don’t respond, please don’t be offended. I’m sure there will be more debate in new threads.
          Dud, I disagree with you, but I respect your right to free speech, and I respect your opinions and I respect your right to have those opinions.
          Debate and non-violent conflict can actually be a good thing.
          I am dismayed that RA did not allow IF to have his opinion or even debate with him.
          And I respect your right to give your opinion. And I respect the right of any employer to severe ties with someone for doing something they were asked not to do.

          I won’t be offended if you don’t reply.

        • Bernie Chan

          I’m no fan of AJ at all…but can’t see him saying to RA (say) “you’ve got to sack Izzy”…But I can see RA worrying about sponsors walking away. RA is in a world of pain financially…

        • joy

          And morally.

        • Dud Roodt

          Absolutely – and rightfully so!

        • joy

          Joyce is in the frame because there is no other possible explanation. Name just one gay who has publicly criticised Folau’s comments. You will need thousands to convince me. Go the Rebels.

        • Dud Roodt

          “one other gay” – you speak like you’re from the 1920’s. Just chuck a “the” before gays next time.

          Name just one? OK. https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-union/i-couldn-t-care-less-what-folau-says-but-the-impact-it-has-is-undeniable-20190502-p51j8i.html

          “You’ll need thousands to convince me” – healthy attitude to take into any argument joy. “Show me one thing to prove me wrong? OK, now show me a thousand because I refuse to think any other way to that of a 200 year old work of fiction”

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          I’m a bit confused as to what the Joyce argument is even about. Even assuming they did sack him because of Joyce, so what – what’s their point?

        • Dud Roodt

          I have no idea. I think it might be because for some reason they feel that the company that decides to pay millions of dollars it doesn’t have to, to another company to pay salaries, should have no say on whether the people’s who’s salaries they pay should be bigots or not.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          Not sure what your point is…

        • joy

          Yes, true, but the object is much further up the food chain. This isn’t about money, it is about principle and he is on to it.. Don’t sell him short. He is smart.

        • Who?

          Given all the press around Rebel Wilson’s (later reduced) payout, and then the Wagner family’s win against Alan Jones (lower than Rebel’s initial figure, higher than her appealed figure, under $5 Million), I’d reckon $10 million would be a new record. And I don’t see it happening. I could imagine – if he were to win – he’d get the full value of his contract, plus costs, but the extra $5+ Million, I can’t see it happening. It’s really more a position from which he can bargain.

        • Patrick

          Different to all those cases, he has actual earnings potential as evidenced by his numerous sponsorship contracts and his RA contract, and can very easily show causation.

          It depends, but ballpark $10m is not unlikely in this case.

        • GO THE Q REDS

          That really is a heavily media swayed version of the incident. No-one was descriminated against by Folou! Where’s all the sinners and suffering Qantas CEO’s threatening to pull funding?

        • Pearcewreck

          Spot on GTQR.

        • joy

          yes

        • joy

          Congratulations Go, you have reduced the Folau injustice to one very intolerant individual. Joyce has a responsibility to run our airline for the benefit of shareholders and customers. Instead he choses to declare war on them. The erstwhile silent Australian might arise and declare war on Qantas. I have.

        • GO THE Q REDS

          Well yes there seems to be a pretty big theme world wide of companies forgetting they are a buisiness and engaging in PC politics and taking a big hit financially! Qantas has allready begun image damage control with marketing spin on social media…..

        • Dud Roodt

          Any examples of business taking a hit financially for engaging in PC politics? Or just “feels”?

        • Dud Roodt

          I’m sure they’ll miss your frequent first class travel immensely joy. You can Margaret Court can go and travel Royal Brunei Airlines – more in-keeping with your Sharia beliefs

        • joy

          Aren’t you conflating being offended with being discriminated against? If there was discrimination would not there be charges laid against Folau?

          Don’t know of any right not to be offended.

          Surely the civilised thing to do is choosing not to be offended and presenting a case with a good respectful argument.

          Bare in mind that Folau also feels deeply offended by RA (and others) which clearly thinks it has the right to shut him up.

        • David Creagh

          I’m appalled, appalled that Latu has not been given the arse. I think I read somewhere that this is not the first time either. Should be a major consequence of his actions given that he could have killed someone and actually broke the law, surely that is a code of conduct issue as well? Where is his code of conduct hearing?

          Not saying I don’t agree that Folau should not have been sacked – for the record, I agree he should have – but there is a definite case of double standards here.

        • joy

          I wonder how many people have been convicted for killing someone while they were asleep?

      • Patrick

        That’s quite heretical of you, actually, and like all such trite examples only shows that you are not a Christian of any seriousness :(

    • Kiwi rugby lover

      He’s the gift that keeps on giving.

    • Greg

      move on, move on…. nothing to see here.

    • Max Graham

      It amuses me how those that follow the Bible literally don’t seem to follow all that much of it. Being gay is a bad thing apparently – it’s mentioned in Leviticus. Not resting on the sabbath is a big one! Top 10 in fact. Presumably, god take this one very seriously. He used lightning to write it on stone. Twice!! But not many faithful sport stars rest on the 7th day. Not many politicians either. Similarly, Why didn’t Izzy include those who use the lord’s name in vain on his ‘hell list’? How about those that check out other blokes’ birds? Why did he leave out 3 of the biggest sins and keep his focus on the gays? Oh yeah, he’s a bigot who can’t live up to his word.

  • Geoffro

    Why did you have to mention Izzy,I was having a good read till then

  • ForceFan

    Thanks Nathan….pleasing to see an occasional mention of what’s happening with Global Rapid Rugby on G&GR.

    • Geoffro

      Good to get a mention but GRR itself needs to up it’s game,can’t find decent match reports anywhere

      • ForceFan

        You mean match reports and highlight packages like this one.

        https://www.rapidrugby.com/fiji-hold-out-determined-samoa/

        • Geoffro

          Thanks mate,what I’ve been looking for.(Us old blokes computer search skills are a bit wanting sometimes)

        • andrewM

          You should be able to see some updates on Farcebook as well

  • Kiwi rugby lover

    Thanks Nathan,

    I like that there are a few important games left next weekend which will keep people focussed. Going to be interesting to see if Gibson rests anyone or whether he decides that the players will get their rest while the finals are on.

    The U20’s are playing well. This competition is really good and putting out some good rugby.

    • Anonymous bloke

      Nick Frost is looking like a great signing for the Brums.

      • Custard Taht

        Yep, I thought his roles in Shaun of the Dead and Worlds End were good. However his role in the Brumbies could be his best yet.

        • Moz

          Nicely done!!!

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          Not a Hot Fuzz fan? Personally, I think Shaun is best, but the other two are great also.

        • Who?

          Cornetto?
          .
          Hot Fuzz for me. Followed by Shaun.

        • D. Braithwaite’s The Brumbies

          Attack the Block and The Guard are class also. Very similar in style.

        • Custard Taht

          Hot Fuzz slipped my mind, but yep, that is a gooden too!

        • Kiwi rugby lover

          I loved Hot Fuzz. But the others are also good

      • Mica

        Didn’t he spend a bit of time in the Cru development squad?

        • Anonymous bloke

          Yep. I think he’s been over there for a year or two.

      • Kiwi rugby lover

        I agree mate. Brumbies recruiting has been pretty spot on I think

    • Hoss

      Some of they tries by the junior Wallies have been outstanding. Some good young talent coming through and we have stitched up a semi spot already.
      Brilliant.

      • Kiwi rugby lover

        Better than my boys. They seem to be struggling. Still at least I won’t lose all the good ones to league

        • Trying to give us a false sense of security perhaps?

        • Bernie Chan

          Wonder how many of these lads are already contracted to league via their ‘scholarships’…? Since they are already in U20, hope not many…

        • Kiwi rugby lover

          I hope not too. Let’s hope most of them
          Kick on. Interestingly one of the KPI’s for the NZ U20 coach is how many players get a Super contract. Not a bad message

        • Who?

          Can’t imagine a League team would be allowing kids post-high school who they have contracted to play Rugby. At any level.
          .
          The bigger question is whether the Irish-born WA-raised scrumhalf will play for the Wallabies or Ireland…

        • Bernie Chan

          That’s what I was alluding too…since this is U20s I hope all are committed to rugby. Can’t blame a guy for going to league though..way more opportunities to be a full time pro in league.
          The young QLD born scrumhalf (Issac Fines?) is another young prospect playing in WA…for the Force in GRR. Another one that left QLD for a lack of opportunities…? Was the POTY in his debut Premier Rugby season…

        • Perth girl

          Issac is making the most of his opportunities playing for the Force with Ian Prior out injured with a torn pec

        • Huw Tindall

          RA have actually signed a bunch of the lads to longer term deals to keep them in the game. There were some articles kicking around a couple of months back but didn’t get the headlines what with all the other shit going on. RA cop a lot of flak, and rightly so, but they have done some good things to their credit. U20s is one of them with an U20s national comp and enforcing U20 as priority over super (e.g. Isaac Lucas).

        • Geoffro

          So your def of struggling is not running up cricket scores against Scotland or Georgia (or losing to the junior Wallabies in the pacific championships..heh,heh)

  • AllyOz

    Regardless of what happens in the future with GRR it must be great preparation for Samoa and Fiji’s next level of players to have games together at this time of year. I hope that this competition can develop and grow to a level where some of the top tier players can afford to stay at home (or return home) to their homes during their careers. I would personally rather watch Australian teams play NZ, Pacific and Asian based teams in a comp in our time zone than the present arrangements.

    • Patrick

      Yes, one of the real under-the-radar good news stories this year.

    • Hannes En Brianda Barnard

      I watch the game on fox and it was pretty good and exciting. Good to see Samoa playing so much better after the trashing in Perth last week.

  • Hannes En Brianda Barnard

    Folau wrote a letter to the 10 RA Board members to complain that confidential information relating to his hearing has been leaked to the media. RA has appointed a PR company to manage the Folau and has been aggressive in the media but clearly still have a problem with integrity as was also evident during the Force fiasco. The Folau crisis is one of many that plague rugby in the past year that is symptomatic of a dysfunctional organisation.
    After the top 3 executives left the organisation (a fall-out of the Force fiasco) there was an opportunity to start fresh when Castle was appointed. Unfortunately Cameron Clyne refused to step down, and RA was unable to make a clean break from the past. I am afraid that the new executives reputations’ are now also tainted as RA continue to drift from one crisis to another….. all symptoms of a dysfunctional leadership.
    The Folau sage may be a mixed blessing to force RA to its knees and develop the much needed case for change.

    • Pearcewreck

      Exactly, the fact that they are allowing Latu to still play shows they are rotten to the core.
      Also, I believe (correct me if I’m wrong and I’m sure some one will if I am), if IF wins, he could negotiate a non cash settlement, ie Reinstate me, Castle goes, Clyde goes.
      Otherwise, pay the full $10 mill.

      • Hannes En Brianda Barnard

        He think if there is a breach of contract he has two choices: specific performance which means reinstating his contract or compensation for breach. As it is unlikely that he will be selected for the Wallabies compensation is the only realistic option. He cannot get Castle or Clyne fired – that is up to the NSWRU and QRU and other members of RA.

  • Bernie Chan

    I read that Phipps is blaming the current intrigue for the Tahs woes…
    Can’t help but think that this is a smokescreen, as the Tahs squad is still laden with ‘first choice Wallabies’…
    The Rebels “screwed the pooch” against the Crusaders, and if they don’t get a result against the Chiefs in the next round then Wessels has not proven he can deliver the right outcome.
    BT, Gibson and Wessels should be under “review”…

    • Custard Taht

      Yeah, bit rich Phipps pretty much blaming Folau for them not making the finals. Yep, it was a distraction, but somehow the Crusaders managed to cancel out all the noise and dominate the regular season.

      Somehow I don’t think it’s Folaus fault that :

      Phipps’ passes have more spray than a nard after a night out in Deli.
      Speaking of Nards, that Foley can’t kick, can’t pass, can’t tackle and can’t stand up when it counts.

      Me thinks Phipps should closer to home and perhaps in the mirror, along with most of his team mates and coaches for the reason the Tahs are not in the finals…after all it is a team sport!

    • GeorgiaSatellite

      Perhaps the Bovine Sprinkler felt victimised by the ‘dunkards’ part. I know I did.

Rugby
@NathW1997

Loved rugby since the day I could remember, got the nickname Footy to show that, I watch Matt Dunning's dropkick every night before going to bed

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